[James Ross]

 edwardk, on 22 September 2018 - 12:03 PM, said:

Bad news folks. The ORMT made the decision to not give Goku a chance to have access to the Developers section and to not be part of the OR team????? In short, he was booted. I will try not think about this too much since if I do, I may get totally ticked off. At this point, Goku would have the right to remove all access to his code so if you have to ability to download it, I would do it soon.

Please remember that it is Dave's decision whether Goku has access to the public forums, including the public Open Rails forums, to which Goku has made the vast majority of his contributions here. 245 of his last 250 messages are to the public forums; only 5 to the private Open Rails forums. Many of the people Goku interacted with are not Open Rails team people (they are enthusiastic users and content creators), so they don't have access to the private Open Rails forum either.

Thus, I do not see how letting Goku back into the private Open Rails forums would have been of much help. Do you see differently?

 BillC, on 22 September 2018 - 06:04 PM, said:

Vince,
With all due respect, IMHO Goku assertion that he needs access to OR developers forum to continue work on his editor is a Red Herring.

I agree. The topics we discuss in private are not things in which Goku has participated much, even when invited to, and, given most of his interactions were with people outside the Open Rails team, I don't believe letting him in would restore what was lost.

 BillC, on 22 September 2018 - 06:04 PM, said:

I may be mistaken, but I believe he still has access to the source code on the public repository of openrails.org. He can use TS.com for forum posts. If he or another developer wishes to collaborate, that can be done via PM.

Everyone has access to the source code, including Goku, and other forums exist where he can discuss his editors with his editor users.

[Genma Saotome]

 James Ross, on 23 September 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

Please remember that it is Dave's decision whether Goku has access to the public forums, including the public Open Rails forums, to which Goku has made the vast majority of his contributions here. 245 of his last 250 messages are to the public forums; only 5 to the private Open Rails forums. Many of the people Goku interacted with are not Open Rails team people (they are enthusiastic users and content creators), so they don't have access to the private Open Rails forum either.

Thus, I do not see how letting Goku back into the private Open Rails forums would have been of much help. Do you see differently?

I thought I was quite clear in my offer that Goku would have read access to all of the software development forums, read/write access to the private forum. He'd see all the comments and feedback posted. Did you misunderstand that?

[James Ross]

 ATSF3751, on 23 September 2018 - 07:27 AM, said:

I don't think the ORMT thought about the consequences of this action of taking Goku out of the game. Yes I have seen some post from him that in our country and others may come across as offensive but this is a community and a world wide one at that. You need to think about how other countries come across to what you are saying in the forums and how some stuff may be taken.

I fear you may be mixing up two separate things.

Goku was banned from all the forums (public and private) by Dave, the admin; Dave then gave ORMT the option of allowing Goku into the private forums (and reading public forums), which we declined (he would be blocked from posting in the public forums either way).

 Genma Saotome, on 23 September 2018 - 01:24 PM, said:

I thought I was quite clear in my offer that Goku would have read access to all of the software development forums, read/write access to the private forum. He'd see all the comments and feedback posted. Did you misunderstand that?

No, that was clear, don't worry. :)

It is true, however, that ORMT's response mostly addressed the private forums and didn't mention the read-only access offered, so I'd like to add something to that (but speaking personally as this hasn't been discussed internally):

I would not object to Goku being given the read-only access to the public forums, as offered, but I also do not feel it would be beneficial. It would allow Goku to see feedback here, but not to respond (except perhaps by PM), which does not seem fair.

As such, my personal ideal - when ORMT discussed this - was to let Goku post to just the one public forum (Contributed Software > Route Editing Software), but we didn't believe that was on offer. Please correct us if that's wrong, as we're certainly up for finding a better solution for everyone if possible.

[Genma Saotome]

 James Ross, on 23 September 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

As such, my personal ideal - when ORMT discussed this - was to let Goku post to just the one public forum (Contributed Software > Route Editing Software), but we didn't believe that was on offer. Please correct us if that's wrong, as we're certainly up for finding a better solution for everyone if possible.

<<ADMIN COMMENT>
That was not on offer.

My role here is, in part, to ensure everyone can participate w/o fear someone is going call them out in abusive manner. Different opinions, even strongly expressed, are ok, but personal insults are not. I don't see how letting an abuser continue to abuse people in one forum is acceptable.

Look, to be clear, Goku has been abusive to people for years. Had he been an ordinary member he'd have been gone a long time ago. But he wasn't an ordinary member, he was a contributor, so I looked the other way each time. When is enough enough? How many times do I look the other way when he posts a pissy dismissive comment about someone?

I finally had my fill. Maybe it wasn't the ideal offense to use to pull the trigger but his post was one time too many. And even so I did offer something that would have allowed your team to work with him.

I'm sorry it didn't work out as it would have been best for everyone, but lets be clear here, the offender is Goku, not me, not you James. All that's happened here is long standing rules being enforced.

[ATSF3751]

Oh Okay so if I am reading this correctly Goku was not banned completely to Open Rails Forums but was completely banned by Elvastower. I'm sorry if I miss read anything and hope something can be figured out eventually. It would be a real shame to loose his talent even if not everyone got along with him. I do understand this is a forum and yes Dave and other ORMT does have to set rules and there should be consequences for your actions. Sure its not the best circumstances but I am sure there are reasons behind the Open Rails team along with Elvastower to do this. I have seen some of Goku's post before and have also questioned myself the nature of some of his post as many others have as well I'm sure. When someone is being abusive to everyone else on the forums along with the Open Rails Team possibly I don't blame them for doing what they did. I remember once I asked Goku a question about the route editor and he said something rude and blunt as well on the forums. I kind of shrugged it off but if he is doing that to just about everyone it would make scenes why the Open Rails Team along with the Elvastower Team did what they did. Enough is enough and sometimes people take it too far to where it shouldn't be tolerated any more. I have always liked Elvastower and the ones on here along with the Open Rails Team who work so hard together to make a great Train Simulator for everyone to enjoy. Lets hope this doesn't bog down the progress and take people away from what we have already.

Brandon

[Genma Saotome]

 ATSF3751, on 23 September 2018 - 02:17 PM, said:

Oh Okay so if I am reading this correctly Goku was not banned completely to Open Rails Forums but was completely banned by Elvastower. I'm sorry if I miss read anything and hope something can be figured out eventually. It would be a real shame to loose his talent even if not everyone got along with him.

<<Admin comment>>
He was banned completely from Elvastower (including no-read access as a guest) but then I made an offer to let him have full access to the private OR forums and read-only access to the Software Development forums. No PM, no email privileges.

IOW, full access to the team in their private forums, no ability to write anything to any ordinary member. He could verbally abuse the OR team for as long as they were willing to put up with him. They declined the offer as not really workable... it is time to move on.

[edwardk]

 James Ross, on 23 September 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

Please remember that it is Dave's decision whether Goku has access to the public forums, including the public Open Rails forums, to which Goku has made the vast majority of his contributions here. 245 of his last 250 messages are to the public forums; only 5 to the private Open Rails forums. Many of the people Goku interacted with are not Open Rails team people (they are enthusiastic users and content creators), so they don't have access to the private Open Rails forum either.

Thus, I do not see how letting Goku back into the private Open Rails forums would have been of much help. Do you see differently?

James,

You did understand the final offer from Dave? He would have been able to read the public posts, not post to them. He still would have had access to the proper information. So if you did understand the final offer, there are other reasons. If not, then a mistake was made.


Edward K.

[RR1]

Sometimes, with any "event", its the collateral damage that has the most damaging and lasting impact and not the main event itself. In this case I fear that that the apparent loss of Csantucci, who appears to me to have been the most prolific developer in both new features and bug fixes over the past few years, will have a greater and more damaging impact on OR's near term development that the loss of Goku. I hope I'm wrong.

[Hobo]

Maybe some of you fellows should read Goku's last post a TS . From what I get out of it he is discontinuing all progress on TSRE and the consist editor for OR and , in his own words , " will never return " .
Could be that Carlo has the same idea . NOT GOOD !!! Carlo was one of the most active and prolific developers of the OR program as I see it .
Might be a good idea to hold onto the latest downloads available for a while .
Just my observation of a bad situation .

[James Ross]

 Genma Saotome, on 23 September 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

<<ADMIN COMMENT>
I'm sorry it didn't work out as it would have been best for everyone, but lets be clear here, the offender is Goku, not me, not you James. All that's happened here is long standing rules being enforced.

Indeed, and I fully support your decision.

I'm not sure it came out right, but I was trying to use the "ideal" example above as further clarification for why we declined your offer. I'm sure you understand this, but maybe not everyone else does yet: the one place where Goku's presence was actually important was not a place it was possible to let him into any more. That is just the way things are now.

 edwardk, on 23 September 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

You did understand the final offer from Dave? He would have been able to read the public posts, not post to them. He still would have had access to the proper information. So if you did understand the final offer, there are other reasons. If not, then a mistake was made.

I do not see how reading - but being unable to respond - to feedback would have been particularly useful for either side. You would be firing your problems into the void, with no response, and Goku would not have been able to explain how things work, or where we'd missed a button or such like. Can you explain how this would be useful for Goku or his users?