[SP 0-6-0]

Maybe ORTS/TSRE5 discussions and development could continue on UKTS or TS.com?

Robert

[copperpen]

Goku is quite clear on trainsim.com. No further ORTS additions will be made to TSRE5. What we have is what we got. The code remains open source, so should anyone else care to continue they are free to do so.

[Csantucci]

I invite people that haven't done it to read today's full post of Goku on trainsim (I'm not saying this in reply or in critics to Merwyn's post), although it is not true what Goku says, that is that I am/was the only active OR developer.

I'm in e-mail contact with him, and I can say that he wasn't clear about his intentions about OR in that trainsim post.
He wrote me:
"I'll be happy to work with you somewhere in the future but I'm not sure if that even happen."
So I have asked him: "What I can’t understand from your post is if you refuse option 1 or not. To make an example I was very interested in adding activity world objects to OR (the other features you mention are beyond my skill). Would you eventually cooperate with me on the TSRE5 side or not (I would cover the OR side)?"
He replied: "Option 1 is the default option for me.
Option 2 is the alternative. I mentioned it there because I don't see a huge chance of success with option 1."

So my question is: is it worth for me trying to cooperate with him as I proposed him, or is Goku considered the evil by the ORMT and I would be blocked on that?

[edwardk]

Csantucci, on 24 September 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

I invite people that haven't done it to read today's full post of Goku on trainsim (I'm not saying this in reply or in critics to Merwyn's post), although it is not true what Goku says, that is that I am/was the only active OR developer.

I'm in e-mail contact with him, and I can say that he wasn't clear about his intentions about OR in that trainsim post.
He wrote me:
"I'll be happy to work with you somewhere in the future but I'm not sure if that even happen."
So I have asked him: "What I can’t understand from your post is if you refuse option 1 or not. To make an example I was very interested in adding activity world objects to OR (the other features you mention are beyond my skill). Would you eventually cooperate with me on the TSRE5 side or not (I would cover the OR side)?"
He replied: "Option 1 is the default option for me.
Option 2 is the alternative. I mentioned it there because I don't see a huge chance of success with option 1."

So my question is: is it worth for me trying to cooperate with him as I proposed him, or is Goku considered the evil by the ORMT and I would be blocked on that?

Carlo,

I read his post and just the fact that he mentioned working with the English language is a challenge for him should indicate why his posts were short and to the point and considered rude. If you have the ability to help Goku, then this path should be considered. This would probably be the best way to prevent the TSRE5 project from going under. Of course it is all up to you if want to do this.

Edward K.

[ckawahara]

From a 100% outsider's opinion, I ask: Isn't any cooperation better than none? There are limitations and advantages that are yet to be discovered. With as small a base of programmers available to the OR project, I'd say the more involved, the merrier.

[jtr1962]

Goku's latest post gives me a lot more insight into things than before. Things get lost in translation when you're not speaking your native language. Add to that all the other issues Goku mentions, and it's easy to see how his patience might wear thin at times, resulting in either cryptic or insulting responses.

This brings me to my next point. There are two kinds of help-paid and unpaid, which is usually volunteer help. When you're paying someone, you can dictate what they work on, their work hours, how they dress, what type of behavior is tolerated, and so forth. When you get volunteer help, you have to take what you get. If there are behavioral or other problems, it needs to to be weighed against the positives. Or put another way, in my mind you should tolerate a lot more negative stuff from someone who is very useful. Yes, this means different sets of rules for different people. Unfortunately, the reality of our society has always been that way. The wealthy, for example, don't have to play by the same set of rules as the rest of us. The idea of one set of rules for everyone is an ideal which in practice is rarely realized.

To some extent this is what happened. Goku was given a free pass multiple times. Should this have continued? I can't answer that. I personally would have continued it in light of Goku's contributions, but then again as a native NYer I have a very thick skin. Insults to me are just part of going through life. They stopped having much effect on me when I passed grade school. Others are less tolerant. So the question becomes at what point does special treatment of one member cause resentment such that enough other members of a team pick up and leave? And is the loss of those members worse from the project's standpoint than the loss of one very productive member? The other side of this is suppose you finally apply the rules to that person. Will other valuable members of the team leave in sympathy, which sadly seems likely?

It's a balancing act and I have no good answers. The effect of all of the above would be far less if OR had a huge team of active developers. It doesn't.

[cr-stagg]

jtr1962, on 24 September 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

Goku's latest post gives me a lot more insight into things than before. Things get lost in translation when you're not speaking your native language. Add to that all the other issues Goku mentions, and it's easy to see how his patience might wear thin at times, resulting in either cryptic or insulting responses.
………...

Curse words do not get lost in translation. Yes, they were not used in the latest infraction and FYI you won't find them because Dave deleted them when they occurred, however, some of us got to read them.

[Genma Saotome]

jtr1962, on 24 September 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

Others are less tolerant. So the question becomes at what point does special treatment of one member cause resentment such that enough other members of a team pick up and leave? And is the loss of those members worse from the project's standpoint than the loss of one very productive member?

<<Admin comment>>

Very astute observation Joe.

Over the last 2-3 years I was ready, more than once, to quit this board. Not from lack of interest but from anger over what I felt I could not do, even as the owner. Goku was not the only reason but was the most frequent one. As a number of members can attest I offered to give this board to whomever would say yes. I got numerous refusals, a couple ummm, I'll think about it, and one said I could, but i don't know how I'd manage to run it. That sits on the shelf as the go-to plan. So absent just turning out the lights I was stuck -- and very, very angry. While Joe's thoughts did not play out exactly as described it was a very real possibility.

I know other members were angry with how they were treated in Goku's posts. I don't know if anyone picked up stakes and left, but the notion is plausible.

See, there is a reason why many boards have "civility" rules: people have different degrees of tolerance when it comes to bullying, insults, and moronic behavior from others. Member's don't stay where they don't feel comfortable. And w/o enough members you don't see many posts and w/o new posts you have a dead board. My limit was reached numerous times the last couple of years. Right now I'm not at all happy about this discussion, here or at TS.com -- I don't like being painted as the bad guy for doing my job with a very, very light hand. The only reason I'm still here -- for better and worse -- is nobody wanted to take over right then when I wanted out.

So Joe's point is spot on: Many people are not very tolerant of conflict and it's very easy to say "screw this mess, I'm outta here!".

And then you cool down and you think, ok, this week really sucked, but next week, "what of all those people I do enjoy?". "What of that route in development I'm looking forward to?". Even as basic as "What will I look at next week while I'm eating lunch at my desk?". And maybe things that really made you angry don't seem to be worth getting all that angry anymore? There is a lot of value in the phrase "Life moves on". If you're going to close the door on something you've invested a fair amount of time in, it'd best for it to be for the right reason and not simple pique. So rather than turn off the lights so I could walk away, they're still on and I'm still here.

Some people are angry enough over what has happened to leave. But you know, tomorrow will still come and life goes on.

[ATSF3751]

I have to applaud you Dave for all you have put up with the last few years! I'm sure its not easy running the board or the site for that matter and just want to thank you for keeping it open all of these years! Sure there are times you want to say I'm done and hang up the towel but like you said you have no one else interested in running it. We have many talented people on this board and I feel a lot more conformable over here then I ever did on Trainsim and don't get me wrong Trainsim is great too! I just feel like this is more of a community forum then it is a give me forum if you know what I mean. We are all here to help each other out and sure some days and weeks are rougher then others but in the end everything will turn out! I am not mad at you or anyone on this forum for the actions that were taken place and plan on staying on the forum for some time! I always look forward to what we have coming out or what routes will be available next, locomotives, rolling stock and other stuff that everyone has created. I feel like this site is more advanced with modeling skills and we can teach each other the best modeling techniques or help each other out with issues we are having. I guess I wasnt really mad with the whole Goku ordeal but more like shocked but I totally get where you are coming from with being the owner/moderator of the site. No one should have to put up with that and something did need to be done.

Brandon

[edwardk]

Sitting back just as I am about ready to go to work, I can say that Dave had to make the final decision, easy or not. The only issue with me is for the past (probably 3 years or more/not counting the break of course), I have put my time into this project so noticing a small group get even smaller just did not work well with me. I am not going anywhere.

Edward K.