[mozdonyos]

I tried the automatic version somewhat.
With the newly developed part, it absolutely doesn't work, the program stops, as I wrote in my previous post.

For the old part, it doesn't take into account the traction curve, but it does take into account the "GearBoxMaxTractiveForceForGears" parameter, but it miscalculates it.
I don't know what the program calculates.
Traction is not adjusted to the positions of the cruise control, making the vehicle a completely unrealistic feature.

[Jean-Paul]

 mozdonyos, on 16 March 2022 - 04:53 AM, said:

I tried the automatic version somewhat.
With the newly developed part, it absolutely doesn't work, the program stops, as I wrote in my previous post.

For the old part, it doesn't take into account the traction curve, but it does take into account the "GearBoxMaxTractiveForceForGears" parameter, but it miscalculates it.
I don't know what the program calculates.
Traction is not adjusted to the positions of the cruise control, making the vehicle a completely unrealistic feature.

Hi !
It's not an unique problem : I sent this post last Friday, without any answer : http://www.elvastowe.../36081-t14-400/
Cheers,
Jean-Paul

[darwins]

During testing, I tried three different heritage trains to try to make sure that the old settings were not broken. These included automatic and manual transmissions, ORTS diesel engine blocks, motor cars with two engines and trains with two motor cars. No problems were encountered. There must be something different between the test trains that I chose and the trains that people are having problems with. I have attached eng and con files for the trains tested. Can I suggest that both Mozdonyos and Jean-Paul also give the eng and con files for the units they have had problems with and then perhaps Peter will be able to work out what is causing the problems.

Attached File(s)

•  TestTrains.zip (25.04K)
  Number of downloads: 168

[Jean-Paul]

 darwins, on 16 March 2022 - 11:37 AM, said:

During testing, I tried three different heritage trains to try to make sure that the old settings were not broken. These included automatic and manual transmissions, ORTS diesel engine blocks, motor cars with two engines and trains with two motor cars. No problems were encountered. There must be something different between the test trains that I chose and the trains that people are having problems with. I have attached eng and con files for the trains tested. Can I suggest that both Mozdonyos and Jean-Paul also give the eng and con files for the units they have had problems with and then perhaps Peter will be able to work out what is causing the problems.

Hi,
Before sending consists, I must say that I didn't test automatic gearboxes. My problem is another one : when two diesel-mechanical engines are coupled in MU, second one doesn't follow gear changes, whatever could be done. I think very simply that MU mode is not complete. I must add that concerned engines are "ORTSGearBoxType ( B )" and "ORTSMainClutchType ( "Friction" )", like a great number of french railcars built by Renault before or just after WW II. First one works properly, second one stays in neutral gear. Real railcars had an electropneumatic association between railcars, allowing synchroneous changes of gear and activation of clutch.
Cheers,
Jean-Paul

[Jean-Paul]

Hi,
I tried to reproduce your configuration on a MU, i.e.
ORTSGearBoxType ( A )
ORTSGearBoxFreeWheel ( 0 )
GearBoxOperation( manual )
GearBoxNumberOfGears ( 4 )
GearBoxMaxSpeedForGears( 18.21mph 32.32mph 54.69mph 77.07mph )
ORTSGearBoxTractiveForceatSpeed ( 24855N 14004N 8276N 5873N )
and it doesn't work.
I'm surprised also to read that yout proposed configuration for DMBS105, quite similar, is as follows :

DieselEngineType ( mechanical )

ORTSGearBoxType ( A )

GearBoxNumberOfGears( 4 )
GearBoxDirectDriveGear( 4 )
GearBoxMaxSpeedForGears( 15.3 27 41 65.5 )
GearBoxMaxTractiveForceForGears( 29200N 16500N 10700N 7150N )
GearBoxOverspeedPercentageForFailure( 120 )
GearBoxOperation( manual )
GearBoxEngineBraking( none )

I adapted this type of writing to my railcars, and it works.... exactly as before, under MSTS procedure ! But there's an explanation : this configuration is exactly the same as before, without any of the new improvements, like "clutch", "freewheel", and even, "GearBoxMaxTractiveForceForGears" is the same writing as before... Only change is "ORTSGearBoxType ( A )" ! In the manual, for instance, it's preconized to write : "ORTSGearBoxTractiveForceatSpeed".... Is the manual wrong ? What if we introduce a clutch type ? I join my log.txt, which shows clearly that OR doesn't take in account the small change introduced by "DieselEngineType ( mechanical ) and ORTSGearBoxType ( A )", and in fact, works in the MSTS mode ! i.e. as well as always, just finding that "ORTSGearBoxType (A)" and "mechanical" instead of "mechanic" are two minor faults !
My conviction in this problem seems that... if we change nothing, it will work as before ! If we change anything, it's gonna be problematic. Could you give us a sample of improvement using all the new abilities ? and preferably, working in MU ?
Cheers,
Jean-Paul

Attached File(s)

•  OpenRailsLog.txt (13.62K)
  Number of downloads: 160

[darwins]

Hi Jean Paul

Firstly, you are correct if you use DieselEngineType ( mechanical ) then the new parameters will not work properly if at all. You will only get MSTS performance. This is what I was testing to see if MSTS performance is still working as it used to. Both yourself and Laci suggested something was going wrong.


To use the new parameters instead of DieselEngineType ( mechanical ) you must use ORTSDieselTransmissionType ( Mechanic )

It is still a work in progress. So far Peter has succeeded to model three different types of clutch and two different types of gearbox. What definitely works so far is:

Locomotives with single engines and manual transmission

Three types of clutch - friction, fluid coupling or scoop coupling

Either with freewheel or without (which will give engine braking)

Type A gearbox used on engines like Hudswell Clarke shunting locos.

Type B gearbox used on engines like Hunslet shunting locos.

Work that is not yet completed for the new model includes automatic transmissions, locomotives and railcars with two engines, driving trailers for railcars and coupled railcars.

Type C gearbox used on British first generation dmu

and Type D gearbox used on Renault autorails


So there is still a long way to go with this project. Please be patient. It has been more than one year for Peter to get the code this far. There have been a lot of problems along the way because mechanical transmission is very different to electric transmission.

[Laci1959]

Does not work with ORTSDieselEngines and ORTSMaxTractiveForceCurves block. This was previously stated by Peter. I was a little surprised by your statement and quickly tried the published Class105_DMBS_E51258_BRBf
by vehicle. It really doesn’t work together, or by cooperation we mean something else.

https://kephost.net/t/2022/11/4921_1c41b0af0149.png

Hello.

Does not work with ORTSDieselEngines and ORTSMaxTractiveForceCurves block. This was previously stated by Peter. I was a little surprised by your statement and quickly tried the published Class105_DMBS_E51258_BRBf
by vehicle. It really doesn’t work together, or by cooperation we mean something else.
If you look at the picture you will see that the 70% charge (diesel dosing pump) according to ThrottleRPMTab is 1400 Rpm. The HUD displays 2305 Rpm. A better engine driver already opens the Dutch nuts on the high-pressure dosing pipes to stop the diesel engine.

Sincerely, Laci 1959.

It may be misunderstood, google is still translating.

[darwins]

@Laci

The 105 is not using new features. The 105, 127, Kiha and I should have added 103 are testing that old trains still work as they did before. There is nothing in the old code to stop the engine overspeeding that much if you do not change gear. Hopefully when the new model is made this will be impossible.

Try with the new shunting loco, you can not overspeed that much even down hill or the engine will be shut down.

For the new model

ORTS Diesel Engine Blocks can be used with the new parameters.

Tractive Force curves can not be used with the new parameters, they are not really appropriate as you would need a different set of curves for each gear as well as for each throttle setting.

[Laci1959]

Then I cast a shadow. I'm sorry.

Quote

For the new model
ORTS Diesel Engine Blocks can be used with the new parameters.

Which locomotive will be? A Class105_DMBS_E51258_BRBf ??
I think I used it for the test because it has ORTSDieselEngines and ORTSGearBoxType. Although I don't think the shift is correct, it's a matter of taste.
Are there any new parameters in the ORTSDieselEngines block or is this a misunderstanding?

Quote

Tractive Force curves can not be used with the new parameters, they are not really appropriate as you would need a different set of curves for each gear as well as for each throttle setting.

I understand this. I met the reverse several times. One curve for all gas settings. I was angry enough. It is not missing because a lot of data is no longer available for old vehicles. Keeping the speeds found in ThrottleRPMTab is more. But I think that’s also part of the ongoing work.

[darwins]

No, no, no... not Class105_DMBS_E51258_BRBf - http://www.elvastower.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/sign_oops.gif


An example using ORTS diesel engine blocks is attached.


There are no new parameters for diesel mechanical. However I have made a suggestion for how to model a hydro-mechanical transmission. It is like this:

When using the torque converter then OR should use the DieselPowerTab to calculate the engine output and the ThrottleRPMTab to fix the engine rpm. The ideal way to represent the output of the torque converter stage(s) would be to use Tractive Force Curves, as you would with a diesel hydraulic transmission.

When using the direct drive, fluid coupling or gears then OR should use the DieselTorqueTab to calculate the tractive force and the engine rpm would be related to the rail speed rather than the throttle position.

It is a complicated idea and is still very much in the future, but it avoids having to change the existing Diesel Engine Block. In such cases the DieselPowerTab would be used to represent a propeller curve controlled by an rpm governor as used by a hydraulic transmission, and the DieselTorqueTab would represent a maximum power curve to be used with an admission control throttle as required by a mechanical transmission.

Attached File(s)

•  R305_Advanced_B_friction.eng (21.46K)
  Number of downloads: 160