[steamer_ctn]

scottb613, on 21 October 2021 - 06:45 AM, said:

Anyone have Peter's ear?

Is it only when the freight animation (dynamic weight) feature is configured that there is a problem?

Can you try a couple of locomotives from my CTN site. One with and one without freight animation.

Once you have identified a unit acting incorrectly, I will have a closer look at it.

[DirtyRam]

scottb613, on 21 October 2021 - 11:04 AM, said:

Hi Darwin,

New variables to me - hah - didn't even have them in my syntax highlighter.

I put my wag file back together with include files - had the 163.5t-us as posted above - that I started this thread with.

I put in your values as just part of the "root" wag - as follows - it changed - it's now 161t-us.

Appreciate the thought.
:)

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( 482Tender
	Type ( Tender ) 
	WagonShape ( 482Tender.S ) 
	Size ( 3.43m 4.57m 14.35m ) 
	CentreOfGravity ( 0m 1.90m 0m )
	Mass ( 186t )
	WheelRadius ( 33in/2 )
	ORTSNumberAxles ( 7 )	
	 
Comment ( ##### INCLUDE FILES [WAGON] ##### )
	include ( ".\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_COUPLERS.inc" )
	include ( ".\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_FRICTION.inc" )
        include ( ".\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_BRAKES.inc" )	
	include ( ".\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_PASSVIEW.inc" )


Comment (#########################)

	ORTSTenderWagonCoalMass ( 21t-us )
	ORTSTenderWagonWaterMass ( 192000lb )	
	Sound ( "freight_33_LD_castiron.sms" ) 
	Name ( "SCO BM482/T" ) 
	FreightAnim ( coal.s 0 -1.7 ) 
)

Regards,
Scott

Hey Scott, a thought, try moving the FreightAnim line above the sound line. Try adding a period to the other one in beginning of your includes.
Also, move the brakes line above the friction line, passview should be below FreightAnims.
ORTSTenderWagonCoalMass ( 21t-us )
ORTSTenderWagonWaterMass ( 192000lb )
FreightAnim ( coal.s 0 -1.7 )
Sound ( "freight_33_LD_castiron.sms" )
Name ( "SCO BM482/T" )

Comment ( ##### INCLUDE FILES [WAGON] ##### )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_COUPLERS.inc" )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_FRICTION.inc" )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_BRAKES.inc" )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_PASSVIEW.inc" )

Try this,
Wagon ( 482Tender
Type ( Tender )
WagonShape ( 482Tender.S )
Size ( 3.43m 4.57m 14.35m )
Mass ( 186t )
WheelRadius ( 33in/2 )
ORTSNumberAxles ( 7 )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_COUPLERS.inc" )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_BRAKES.inc" )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_FRICTION.inc" )
CentreOfGravity ( 0m 1.90m 0m )
FreightAnim ( coal.s 0 -1.7 )
ORTSTenderWagonCoalMass ( 21t-us )
ORTSTenderWagonWaterMass ( 192000lb )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_PASSVIEW.inc" )
Sound ( "freight_33_LD_castiron.sms" )
Name ( "SCO BM482/T" )
)

Mike

[R H Steele]

I agree with Mike, when first making up the OR Std_Eng files, I finally figured out ( after much head-banging against wall ) that position really makes a difference in how OR parses a file.

[scottb613]

steamer_ctn, on 21 October 2021 - 01:01 PM, said:

Is it only when the freight animation (dynamic weight) feature is configured that there is a problem?

Can you try a couple of locomotives from my CTN site. One with and one without freight animation.

Once you have identified a unit acting incorrectly, I will have a closer look at it.

Hi Peter,

Yep - remove the freight animation - use the standard Mass figure used on every other car - works fine.

I'll look again - but - as documented previously the problem increases exponentially as the size of the tender load increases. My USRA tender has only a small error - while my MONSTER centipede has a large error. I don't recall seeing anything on your site with dynamic loads enabled - comparable. I had looked at your PRR Consolidation and NYC Niagara. I can send you the full locomotive I'm working with if it helps.

DirtyRam, on 21 October 2021 - 01:16 PM, said:

Hey Scott, a thought, try moving the FreightAnim line above the sound line. Try adding a period to the other one in beginning of your includes.
Also, move the brakes line above the friction line, passview should be below FreightAnims.
ORTSTenderWagonCoalMass ( 21t-us )
ORTSTenderWagonWaterMass ( 192000lb )
FreightAnim ( coal.s 0 -1.7 )
Sound ( "freight_33_LD_castiron.sms" )
Name ( "SCO BM482/T" )

Comment ( ##### INCLUDE FILES [WAGON] ##### )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_COUPLERS.inc" )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_FRICTION.inc" )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_BRAKES.inc" )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_PASSVIEW.inc" )

Try this,
Wagon ( 482Tender
Type ( Tender )
WagonShape ( 482Tender.S )
Size ( 3.43m 4.57m 14.35m )
Mass ( 186t )
WheelRadius ( 33in/2 )
ORTSNumberAxles ( 7 )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_COUPLERS.inc" )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_BRAKES.inc" )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_FRICTION.inc" )
CentreOfGravity ( 0m 1.90m 0m )
FreightAnim ( coal.s 0 -1.7 )
ORTSTenderWagonCoalMass ( 21t-us )
ORTSTenderWagonWaterMass ( 192000lb )
include ( "..\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_PASSVIEW.inc" )
Sound ( "freight_33_LD_castiron.sms" )
Name ( "SCO BM482/T" )
)

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks again - let me give this a try.

R H Steele, on 21 October 2021 - 03:38 PM, said:

I agree with Mike, when first making up the OR Std_Eng files, I finally figured out ( after much head-banging against wall ) that position really makes a difference in how OR parses a file.

Hi Gerry,

Thanks as well - I'll post when I get some time to test.

Regards,
Scott

[scottb613]

Hi Folks,

For anyone interested - I uploaded the locomotive - all my stuff is prefixed with a "SCO" now when building a consist.

It's fully functioning but I just started a massive rebuild - so the new parts aren't textured properly.

https://mega.nz/file...c0bcnEi3lWjq2e8

Regards,
Scott

[scottb613]

steamer_ctn, on 21 October 2021 - 01:01 PM, said:

Is it only when the freight animation (dynamic weight) feature is configured that there is a problem?

Can you try a couple of locomotives from my CTN site. One with and one without freight animation.

Once you have identified a unit acting incorrectly, I will have a closer look at it.

Hi Peter,

I looked again - I do spend a great deal of time on your site.

The Niagara is the only thing close in scale or scope - no dynamic loads - no coal animation at all - and the files are dated 2017. I don't think we had "dynamic loads" in 2017.

Regards,
Scott

[scottb613]

DirtyRam, on 21 October 2021 - 01:16 PM, said:

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the continued help.

Formatted as you suggested:

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( 482Tender
	Type ( Tender ) 
	WagonShape ( 482Tender.S ) 
	Size ( 3.43m 4.57m 14.35m ) 
	Mass ( 186t )
	WheelRadius ( 33in/2 )
	ORTSNumberAxles ( 7 )	
	 
Comment ( ##### INCLUDE FILES [WAGON] ##### )
	include ( ".\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_COUPLERS.inc" )
    include ( ".\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_BRAKES.inc" )
	include ( ".\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_FRICTION.inc" )
	
Comment (#########################)

	CentreOfGravity ( 0m 1.90m 0m )
	FreightAnim ( coal.s 0 -1.7 ) 
	ORTSTenderWagonCoalMass ( 21t-us )
	ORTSTenderWagonWaterMass ( 192000lb )
	include ( ".\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_PASSVIEW.inc" )	
	Sound ( "freight_33_LD_castiron.sms" ) 
	Name ( "SCO BM482/T" ) 
)

Not sure if you can see it but no change. 161t-us

Goes back to 163.5t-us if I remove the following two statements:
ORTSTenderWagonCoalMass ( 21t-us )
ORTSTenderWagonWaterMass ( 192000lb )

Regards,
Scott

[steamer_ctn]

scottb613, on 22 October 2021 - 05:10 AM, said:

I looked again - I do spend a great deal of time on your site.

The Niagara is the only thing close in scale or scope - no dynamic loads - no coal animation at all - and the files are dated 2017. I don't think we had "dynamic loads" in 2017.

When looking at this type of configuration, a modeller needs to consider two elements:

i) Visual Effects - This is the actual movement of a load due to the load changing.

ii) Physics Effects - This is the adjustment of the physics, such as weigh, friction, etc as the load changes.

Whilst these two elements have a loose linkage they need to be thought of as different elements.

For example a diesel, and some steam locomotives do not have moving visual loads, and hence in this instance it is unlikely that a visual effect will apply. They can however still have the Physics Effects configured. Naturally some other locomotives will support the use of both effects.

The Niagara falls into the former case as its tender does not support the movement of the coal, however it still has the Physics Effects configured. Whereas the Consolidation H6A locomotive on my site falls into the second category, and thus has both features working. In fact the Consolidation H6A was used as a tutorial activity to demonstrate the ability of dynamic loading.

Based upon your description of the problem, it appears that you are having problems with the Physics Effects. I have run the Niagara quickly and it appears to reporting the dynamic weight correctly.

Hence as to my suggestion to start with this model as a guide for trying to debug your issue.

[scottb613]

steamer_ctn, on 22 October 2021 - 05:09 PM, said:

When looking at this type of configuration, a modeller needs to consider two elements:

i) Visual Effects - This is the actual movement of a load due to the load changing.

ii) Physics Effects - This is the adjustment of the physics, such as weigh, friction, etc as the load changes.

Whilst these two elements have a loose linkage they need to be thought of as different elements.

For example a diesel, and some steam locomotives do not have moving visual loads, and hence in this instance it is unlikely that a visual effect will apply. They can however still have the Physics Effects configured. Naturally some other locomotives will support the use of both effects.

The Niagara falls into the former case as its tender does not support the movement of the coal, however it still has the Physics Effects configured. Whereas the Consolidation H6A locomotive on my site falls into the second category, and thus has both features working. In fact the Consolidation H6A was used as a tutorial activity to demonstrate the ability of dynamic loading.

Based upon your description of the problem, it appears that you are having problems with the Physics Effects. I have run the Niagara quickly and it appears to reporting the dynamic weight correctly.

Hence as to my suggestion to start with this model as a guide for trying to debug your issue.

Hi Peter,

Thanks for looking and taking the time to respond.

The problem seems to magnify as tender mass increases - so we need something in a similar size and your Niagara fits the bill.

As best I can determine - the problem has nothing to do with any visual display on the model. The simple coal load animation works fine.

The problem has been isolated - to the best of my knowledge - to the "dynaminc Weight and Friction chunk of code" as follows - which the Niagara doesn't have.

Comment ( ##### FRICTION  - FREIGHT ANIMATION ##### )           
        ORTSFreightAnims 
        ( 
                WagonEmptyWeight( 36t-us )
                EmptyMaxBrakeForce (54kN )    
                EmptyMaxHandbrakeForce ( 50kN ) 
                ORTSBearingType ( Friction )
                EmptyORTSDavis_A ( 162.79lbf ) 
                EmptyORTSDavis_B ( 1.6200lbf/mph ) 
                EmptyORTSDavis_C ( 0.005000lbf/mph^2 ) 
                EmptyCentreOfGravity_Y ( 1.4 ) 

                FreightAnimContinuous 
                ( 
                        FreightWeightWhenFull( 58t-us ) 
                        FullMaxBrakeForce ( 141kN )
                        FullMaxHandbrakeForce ( 50kN ) 
                        ORTSBearingType ( Friction )
                        FullORTSDavis_A ( 238.19lbf ) 
                        FullORTSDavis_B ( 4.2300lbf/mph ) 
                        FullORTSDavis_C ( 0.005000lbf/mph^2 ) 
                        FullCentreOfGravity_Y ( 1.8 ) 
                ) 
        )

Then as documented further - previously - it seems that specifically the "FreightWeightWhenFull" is the actual parameter that introduces the mass error:

When I set the empty car to 10t-us and the load to 10t-us - - - - - I get 20t-us in the F5 HUD.

When I set the empty car to 100t-us and the load to 100t-us - - - - - I get 194.5t-us in the F5 HUD.

When I set the empty car to 10t-us and the load to 200t-us - - - - - I get 104.5t-us in the F5 HUD.

When I set the empty car to 200t-us and the load to 10t-us - - - - - I get 210t-us in the F5 HUD.

If you feel it will be helpful - I can copy my code and paste it in the Niagara tender wag - I just don't see what benefit that would provide.

I'll work on that when I get some time.

Thanks for the interest.

Regards,
Scott

[slipperman]

Hi Scott,
Although I find this thread interesting, it is way above my head, so please bear with me :)

From the chart of empty car and load mass figures, it appears that the maximum permitted load is 94.5t-us.
Here's my, very silly, suggestion! Does the loco .eng file have the parameter MaxTenderCoalMass? If so, does its value (probably in lbs) equate to 94.5t-us?

OK! I'll get my coat now! Goodbye :)

Ged