Tender Wags - Physics

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Tender Wags - Physics Rate Topic:

#1 scottb613

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Posted 20 October 2021 - 12:42 PM

Hi Folks,

OK - need a little pointer - wasted hours already working on correcting this - I thought I had tender physics nailed down. Now this is a seven axle centipede tender w' rollers and a starting mass of 186t-us - however - in the F5 HUD - the tender mass comes up as 163.5 t-us when full. From the numbers I have input - - - how - - - do I possibly get 163.5? I've tried converting all the weight figures to "lb" - no joy. Also - while I know rollers are better than friction bearings - the friction value goes immediately to 75lbf and stays in that range once I start moving - even my roller bearing passenger coaches cruise at a couple hundred lbf at a small fraction of the mass of the tender. I'm assuming it's my freight animation clogging the works. I've triple checked my FCalc numbers. A little help - here - to save my sanity.

Thanks.

Regards,
Scott

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( 482Tender
	Type ( Tender ) 
	WagonShape ( 482Tender.S ) 
	Size ( 3.43m 4.57m 14.35m ) 
	CentreOfGravity ( 0m 1.90m 0m )
	Mass ( 186t-us )
	WheelRadius ( 33in/2 )
	ORTSNumberAxles ( 7 )	
	 
Comment ( ##### COUPLER ##### )
		Coupling ( 
		Type ( Bar ) 
		Spring ( 
			Stiffness ( 1.2e6N/m 4.8e6N/m ) 
			Damping ( 1.2e6N/m/s 3.3e6N/m/s ) 
			Break ( 1.8e7N 1.8e7N ) 
			r0 ( 0cm 5cm ) 
		) 
		CouplingHasRigidConnection ( 1 ) 
	)

Comment ( ##### FRICTION ##### )	
		ORTSFreightAnims 
	( 
		WagonEmptyWeight( 69t-us )
		EmptyMaxBrakeForce (103kN )    
		EmptyMaxHandbrakeForce ( 61kN ) 
		ORTSBearingType ( Roller )
		EmptyORTSDavis_A ( 176.00 lb ) 
		EmptyORTSDavis_B ( 1.0350 lbf/mph ) 
		EmptyORTSDavis_C ( 0.005000 lbf/mph^2 ) 
		EmptyCentreOfGravity_Y ( 1.4 ) 

		FreightAnimContinuous 
		( 
			FreightWeightWhenFull( 117t-us ) 
			FullMaxBrakeForce ( 279kN )
			FullMaxHandbrakeForce ( 50 kN ) 
			ORTSBearingType ( Roller )
			FullORTSDavis_A ( 351.50 lb ) 
			FullORTSDavis_B ( 2.7901 lbf/mph ) 
			FullORTSDavis_C ( 0.005000 lbf/mph^2 ) 
			FullCentreOfGravity_Y ( 1.8 ) 
		) 
	)
	
Comment ( ##### BRAKES ##### )	
	BrakeEquipmentType ( "Triple_valve, Emergency_brake_reservoir, Handbrake" ) 
	BrakeSystemType ( "Air_single_pipe" )   
	TripleValveRatio ( 2.5 ) 
	MaxApplicationRate ( 20 ) 
	MaxReleaseRate ( 20 ) 
	EmergencyResCapacity ( 3.6 ) 
	EmergencyResChargingRate ( 1 ) 
	EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure ( 90 ) 
	BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce ( 57 ) 
	ORTSBrakeShoeFriction ( 0.0 0.50 8.0 0.288 16.1 0.241 24.1 0.211 32.2 0.187 40.2 0.173 48.3 0.161 56.3 0.150 64.4 0.142 72.2 0.139 80.5 0.134 88.5 0.129 96.6 0.125 104.6 0.123 112.7 0.121)

Comment ( ##### PASSENGER VIEW ##### )	
	Inside ( 
		PassengerCabinFile ( 482Tender.s ) 
		PassengerCabinHeadPos ( 1.8 3.62 8.0 ) 
		RotationLimit ( 30 90 0 ) 
		StartDirection ( 0 15 0 ) 
		Sound ( "freight_33_LD_castiron.sms" ) 
	)


Comment (#########################)
	
	Sound ( "freight_33_LD_castiron.sms" ) 
	Name ( "SCO BM482/T" ) 
	FreightAnim ( coal.s 0 -1.7 ) 
)

#2 DirtyRam

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Posted 20 October 2021 - 02:01 PM

scottb613, on 20 October 2021 - 12:42 PM, said:

Hi Folks,

OK - need a little pointer - wasted hours already working on correcting this - I thought I had tender physics nailed down. Now this is a seven axle centipede tender w' rollers with a starting mass of 186t-us - however - in the F5 HUD - the tender mass comes up as 163.5 t-us when full. From the numbers I have input - - - how - - - do I possibly get 163.5? I've tried converting all the weight figures to "lb" - no joy. Also - while I know rollers are better than friction bearings - the friction value goes immediately to 75lbf and stays in that range once I start moving - even my roller bearing passenger coaches cruise at a couple hundred lbf at a small fraction of the mass of the tender. I'm assuming it's my freight animation clogging the works. I've triple checked my FCalc numbers. A little help - here - to save my sanity.

Thanks.

Regards,
Scott

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( 482Tender
	Type ( Tender ) 
	WagonShape ( 482Tender.S ) 
	Size ( 3.43m 4.57m 14.35m ) 
	CentreOfGravity ( 0m 1.90m 0m )
	Mass ( 186t-us )
	WheelRadius ( 33in/2 )
	ORTSNumberAxles ( 7 )	
	 
Comment ( ##### COUPLER ##### )
		Coupling ( 
		Type ( Bar ) 
		Spring ( 
			Stiffness ( 1.2e6N/m 4.8e6N/m ) 
			Damping ( 1.2e6N/m/s 3.3e6N/m/s ) 
			Break ( 1.8e7N 1.8e7N ) 
			r0 ( 0cm 5cm ) 
		) 
		CouplingHasRigidConnection ( 1 ) 
	)

Comment ( ##### FRICTION ##### )	
		ORTSFreightAnims 
	( 
		WagonEmptyWeight( 69t-us )
		EmptyMaxBrakeForce (103kN )    
		EmptyMaxHandbrakeForce ( 61kN ) 
		ORTSBearingType ( Roller )
		EmptyORTSDavis_A ( 176.00 lb ) 
		EmptyORTSDavis_B ( 1.0350 lbf/mph ) 
		EmptyORTSDavis_C ( 0.005000 lbf/mph^2 ) 
		EmptyCentreOfGravity_Y ( 1.4 ) 

		FreightAnimContinuous 
		( 
			FreightWeightWhenFull( 117t-us ) 
			FullMaxBrakeForce ( 279kN )
			FullMaxHandbrakeForce ( 50 kN ) 
			ORTSBearingType ( Roller )
			FullORTSDavis_A ( 351.50 lb ) 
			FullORTSDavis_B ( 2.7901 lbf/mph ) 
			FullORTSDavis_C ( 0.005000 lbf/mph^2 ) 
			FullCentreOfGravity_Y ( 1.8 ) 
		) 
	)
	
Comment ( ##### BRAKES ##### )	
	BrakeEquipmentType ( "Triple_valve, Emergency_brake_reservoir, Handbrake" ) 
	BrakeSystemType ( "Air_single_pipe" )   
	TripleValveRatio ( 2.5 ) 
	MaxApplicationRate ( 20 ) 
	MaxReleaseRate ( 20 ) 
	EmergencyResCapacity ( 3.6 ) 
	EmergencyResChargingRate ( 1 ) 
	EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure ( 90 ) 
	BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce ( 57 ) 
	ORTSBrakeShoeFriction ( 0.0 0.50 8.0 0.288 16.1 0.241 24.1 0.211 32.2 0.187 40.2 0.173 48.3 0.161 56.3 0.150 64.4 0.142 72.2 0.139 80.5 0.134 88.5 0.129 96.6 0.125 104.6 0.123 112.7 0.121)

Comment ( ##### PASSENGER VIEW ##### )	
	Inside ( 
		PassengerCabinFile ( 482Tender.s ) 
		PassengerCabinHeadPos ( 1.8 3.62 8.0 ) 
		RotationLimit ( 30 90 0 ) 
		StartDirection ( 0 15 0 ) 
		Sound ( "freight_33_LD_castiron.sms" ) 
	)


Comment (#########################)
	
	Sound ( "freight_33_LD_castiron.sms" ) 
	Name ( "SCO BM482/T" ) 
	FreightAnim ( coal.s 0 -1.7 ) 
)

Hey Scott, try putting an f on this, EmptyORTSDavis_A ( 176.00 lb )
Oh ya, and take spaces out.
FullORTSDavis_A ( 351.50lbf )
FullORTSDavis_B ( 2.7901lbf/mph )
FullORTSDavis_C ( 0.005000lbf/mph^2 )
Mike

#3 scottb613

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Posted 20 October 2021 - 02:14 PM

DirtyRam, on 20 October 2021 - 02:01 PM, said:

Hi Mike,

Thanks so much - huh - yep - looks like a mistake on my part.

GOOD CATCH.

Found the reference on Peter's site - while "lb" seems acceptable for non freight animation Davis values - "lbf" is the only option for full and empty freight animations.

http://www.coalstone...load-animation/

Let me give both a shot.

Thanks !

Regards,
Scott

#4 DirtyRam

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Posted 20 October 2021 - 02:21 PM

scottb613, on 20 October 2021 - 02:14 PM, said:

:derisive: No problem bud

#5 scottb613

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Posted 20 October 2021 - 04:32 PM

Hi Folks,

Well that did fix my friction issue - 1 our of 2 is not bad.

The starting mass of tender still shows 163.6t-us in the HUD?

Regards,
Scott

#6 copperpen

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Posted 21 October 2021 - 01:15 AM

186 short tons coverts to 166.071 long tons. May be an error somewhere in the code.

#7 scottb613

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Posted 21 October 2021 - 02:54 AM

copperpen, on 21 October 2021 - 01:15 AM, said:

186 short tons coverts to 166.071 long tons. May be an error somewhere in the code.

Hi Mervyn,

Thanks !

Yeah - I had considered a code error - however - the plot thickens. This tender - configured similarly - at 94 t-us shows up as 93.7 t-us in the F5 HUD - the solution seems beyond my meager reach.

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( USRA_Tend 
	Type ( Tender ) 
	WagonShape ( USRA_Tend.S ) 
	Size ( 3.37m 4.65m 10.2m ) 
	CentreOfGravity ( 0m 1.90m -5m )
	Mass ( 94t-us ) 
	WheelRadius ( 33in/2 ) 
	ORTSNumberAxles (4)

Comment ( ##### COUPLER ##### )
	Coupling (
		Type ( Bar )
		Spring (
			Stiffness ( 1e4N/m 4.5e6N/m )
			Break ( 1200kN 1200kN )
			r0 ( 6cm 6cm )
		)
		CouplingHasRigidConnection ( 1 )
	) 

Comment ( ##### FRICTION  - FREIGHT ANIMATION ##### )		
	ORTSFreightAnims 
	( 
		WagonEmptyWeight( 36t-us )
		EmptyMaxBrakeForce (54kN )    
		EmptyMaxHandbrakeForce ( 50kN ) 
		ORTSBearingType ( Friction )
		EmptyORTSDavis_A ( 162.79lbf ) 
		EmptyORTSDavis_B ( 1.6200lbf/mph ) 
		EmptyORTSDavis_C ( 0.005000lbf/mph^2 ) 
		EmptyCentreOfGravity_Y ( 1.4 ) 

		FreightAnimContinuous 
		( 
			FreightWeightWhenFull( 58t-us ) 
			FullMaxBrakeForce ( 141kN )
			FullMaxHandbrakeForce ( 50kN ) 
			ORTSBearingType ( Friction )
			FullORTSDavis_A ( 238.19lbf ) 
			FullORTSDavis_B ( 4.2300lbf/mph ) 
			FullORTSDavis_C ( 0.005000lbf/mph^2 ) 
			FullCentreOfGravity_Y ( 1.8 ) 
		) 
	)
	
Comment ( ##### BRAKES ##### )
	BrakeEquipmentType ( "Triple_valve, Emergency_brake_reservoir, Handbrake" ) 
	BrakeSystemType ( "Air_single_pipe" )   
	TripleValveRatio ( 2.5 ) 
	MaxApplicationRate ( 20 ) 
	MaxReleaseRate ( 20 ) 
	EmergencyResCapacity ( 3.6 ) 
	EmergencyResChargingRate ( 1 ) 
	EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure ( 90 ) 
	BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce ( 57 ) 
	ORTSBrakeShoeFriction ( 0.0 0.5 8.0 0.288 16.1 0.241 24.1 0.211 32.2 0.187 40.2 0.173 48.3 0.161 56.3 0.150 64.4 0.142 72.2 0.139 80.5 0.134 88.5 0.129 96.6 0.125 104.6 0.123 112.7 0.121) 

Comment ( ##### LIGHTS ##### )	
	Lights ( 4
		Light (
			Comment ( RED CLASS PORT )
			Type ( 0 )
			Conditions (
				Headlight ( 0 )
				Unit ( 3 )
			)
			FadeIn ( 0.5 )
			FadeOut ( 0.5 )
			States ( 1
				State (
					Duration ( 0.0 )
					LightColour ( FFee0010 )
					Position ( 1.27 3.08 -4.82 )
					Azimuth ( -180 -180 -180 )
					Transition ( 0 )
					Radius ( 0.20 )
				)
			)
		)	
		Light (
			Comment ( RED CLASS STAR )
			Type ( 0 )
			Conditions (
				Headlight ( 0 )
				Unit ( 3 )
			)
			FadeIn ( 0.5 )
			FadeOut ( 0.5 )
			States ( 1
				State (
					Duration ( 0.0 )
					LightColour ( FFee0010 )
					Position ( -1.27 3.08 -4.82 )
					Azimuth ( -180 -180 -180 )
					Transition ( 0 )
					Radius ( 0.20 )
				)
			)
		)
		Light ( 
			Comment ( CLASS OUT PORT )
			Type ( 0 ) 
			Conditions ( 
				Headlight ( 3 ) 
				Unit ( 0 ) 
			) 
			FadeIn ( 0.5 ) 
			FadeOut ( 0.5 ) 
			Cycle ( 0 ) 
			States ( 1 
				State ( 
					Duration ( 0.0 ) 
					LightColour ( DDF0E296 ) 
					Position ( 1.42 3.08 -4.67 )
					Azimuth ( 90.0 90.0 90.0 ) 
					Transition ( 0 ) 
					Radius ( 0.22 ) 
				) 
			) 
		) 
		Light ( 
			Comment ( CLASS OUT STAR )
			Type ( 0 ) 
			Conditions ( 
				Headlight ( 3 ) 
				Unit ( 0 ) 
			) 
			FadeIn ( 0.5 ) 
			FadeOut ( 0.5 ) 
			Cycle ( 0 ) 
			States ( 1 
				State ( 
					Duration ( 0.0 ) 
					LightColour ( DDF0E296 ) 
					Position ( -1.42 3.08 -4.67 )
					Azimuth ( -90.0 -90.0 -90.0 ) 
					Transition ( 0 ) 
					Radius ( 0.22 ) 
				) 
			)
		)
		
	)
	
Comment ( ##### PASSENGER VIEW ##### )
	Inside ( 
		PassengerCabinFile ( USRA_Tend.s ) 
		PassengerCabinHeadPos ( 1.85 3.6 5.3 ) 
		RotationLimit ( 30 90 0 ) 
		StartDirection ( 0 12 0 ) 
		Sound ( "freight_33_LD_castiron.sms" ) 
	) 
	
Comment ( ##### MISC WAGON ##### )
	FreightAnim ( coal.s 0 -2.4 )
	IntakePoint ( -2.91 0.5 FuelWater ) 
	IntakePoint ( 5.56 0.5 FuelCoal ) 
	Sound ( "freight_33_LD_castiron.sms" ) 
	Name ( "SCO USRA282RUT #37 Tender" )
)

Regards,
Scott

#8 scottb613

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Posted 21 October 2021 - 06:45 AM

Hi Folks,

Just a tad more info.

It appears when you add the freight animation section - the Mass in the traditional location is no longer read or needed. Makes sense.

When I set the empty car to 10t-us and the load to 10t-us - - - - - I get 20t-us in the F5 HUD.

When I set the empty car to 100t-us and the load to 100t-us - - - - - I get 194.5t-us in the F5 HUD.

When I set the empty car to 10t-us and the load to 200t-us - - - - - I get 104.5t-us in the F5 HUD.

When I set the empty car to 200t-us and the load to 10t-us - - - - - I get 210t-us in the F5 HUD.

Something is hosed with the calculation of the Freight Weight.

Anyone have Peter's ear?

I'm on Carlo's version 105.

###########################################
###########################################

ADMIN - can we move this to the ORTS Bug Forum?

###########################################
###########################################

Regards,
Scott

#9 darwins

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Posted 21 October 2021 - 10:43 AM

Hi Scott

I notice that you have not put the coal and water mass in the tender file. I presume these are in the eng for the loco. Not sure if changing the values in the loco file or using something like

ORTSTenderWagonCoalMass ( 5t-uk )
ORTSTenderWagonWaterMass ( 35000lb )

could help in the tender file. Might be worth a try to see if there is any effect.

#10 scottb613

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Posted 21 October 2021 - 11:04 AM

Hi Darwin,

New variables to me - hah - didn't even have them in my syntax highlighter.

I put my wag file back together with include files - had the 163.5t-us as posted above - that I started this thread with.

I put in your values as just part of the "root" wag - as follows - it changed - it's now 161t-us.

Appreciate the thought.
:)

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( 482Tender
	Type ( Tender ) 
	WagonShape ( 482Tender.S ) 
	Size ( 3.43m 4.57m 14.35m ) 
	CentreOfGravity ( 0m 1.90m 0m )
	Mass ( 186t )
	WheelRadius ( 33in/2 )
	ORTSNumberAxles ( 7 )	
	 
Comment ( ##### INCLUDE FILES [WAGON] ##### )
	include ( ".\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_COUPLERS.inc" )
	include ( ".\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_FRICTION.inc" )
        include ( ".\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_BRAKES.inc" )	
	include ( ".\\INCLUDE\\BM482TEN_PASSVIEW.inc" )


Comment (#########################)

	ORTSTenderWagonCoalMass ( 21t-us )
	ORTSTenderWagonWaterMass ( 192000lb )	
	Sound ( "freight_33_LD_castiron.sms" ) 
	Name ( "SCO BM482/T" ) 
	FreightAnim ( coal.s 0 -1.7 ) 
)