Elvas Tower: Wishes for improvement of braking systems - Elvas Tower

Jump to content

  • 48 Pages +
  • « First
  • 41
  • 42
  • 43
  • 44
  • 45
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Wishes for improvement of braking systems Adding and correcting of features Rate Topic: -----

#631 User is offline   Weter 

  • Member, Board of Directors
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: ET Admin Group
  • Posts: 8,853
  • Joined: 01-June 20
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Simulator:ORTS
  • Country:

Posted 01 April 2024 - 08:14 AM

Thanks, Phillip.
This

Quote

(Why full service pressure drop of 0? Well, the maximum loco brake pressure is defined as the [Max Pressure - Full Service Pressure Drop]. So if I want a maximum pressure of 45, I set the max pressure to 45 and the drop in pressure to 0.)
(And why no other tokens? As far as I can see, none of the tokens other than Max Pressure and Full Service Pressure Drop affect engine brakes in Open Rails, all the other stuff is nonsense.)

Is essential note!

#632 User is offline   darwins 

  • Superintendant
  • Group: Posts: Elite Member
  • Posts: 1,530
  • Joined: 25-September 17
  • Gender:Male
  • Simulator:Open Rails
  • Country:

Posted 06 April 2024 - 12:23 PM

Thanks for that.

I now have another problem. As you have said many of the lines make no difference to performance.

The engine brake seems to have a fixed application rate of 3.0 psi/s - whatever I try it takes 15 s to change from BC 0 psi to BC 45 psi

This appears to be hard coded and can not be changed.

adding for example

EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 10.0psi/s )

makes no difference

The engine contoller in this case is:

Comment ( Based on Westinghouse No 9 Drivers brake valve with double check valve )
Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.1 0.5
NumNotches ( 3
Notch ( 0.0 0 EngineBrakesControllerReleaseStart ORTSLabel ( "Running" ) )
Notch ( 0.5 0 EngineBrakesControllerHoldLappedStart ORTSLabel ( "Lap" ) )
Notch ( 1.0 0 EngineBrakesControllerApplyStart ORTSLabel ( "Apply" ) ) ) )

Chaning ApplyStart with FullServiceStart or EmergencyStart does not change this.

I tried another Engine Brake Controler that was supposed to offer two different application rates:

EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 10.0psi/s )
EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 40.0psi/s )

similarly makes no difference

Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.1 0.2
NumNotches ( 4
Comment ( 5 Notches - RELEASE - Releases Locomotive Brakes but not train brakes )
Notch ( 0.0 0 EngineBrakesControllerReleaseStart ORTSLabel ( "Running" ) )
Notch ( 0.5 0 EngineBrakesControllerHoldLappedStart ORTSLabel ( "Lap" ) )
Notch ( 0.7 0 EngineBrakesControllerFullServiceStart ORTSLabel ( "Slow Application" ) )
Notch ( 1.0 0 EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ORTSLabel ( "Fast Application" ) ) ) )

I found the application rates were the same as above regardless of the brake controller.

The time of 15s to reach maximum brake cylinder pressure is way beyond the standards required in UK or UIC countries.

The maximum time for an independent brake to reach maximum pressure in a full service application should be 4.0s

Would it be possible to make

EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( x ) and EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( y )
and also the release rate

functional in Open Rails?

#633 User is offline   Weter 

  • Member, Board of Directors
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: ET Admin Group
  • Posts: 8,853
  • Joined: 01-June 20
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Simulator:ORTS
  • Country:

Posted 06 April 2024 - 04:06 PM

Quote

Chaning ApplyStart with FullServiceStart or EmergencyStart does not change this.

use "dummy"

there are some parameters, named about ORTSindependent(engine?)BrakeApplication/ReleaseRate too.

#634 User is online   pschlik 

  • Engineer
  • Group: Posts: Contributing Member
  • Posts: 570
  • Joined: 04-March 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Simulator:OpenRails - Unstable
  • Country:

Posted 06 April 2024 - 07:31 PM

View Postdarwins, on 06 April 2024 - 12:23 PM, said:

SNIP


I don't think the engine brakes controller application/release rate does all that much. What you want to use are ORTSEngineBrakeApplicationRate and ORTSEngineBrakeReleaseRate.

#635 User is offline   darwins 

  • Superintendant
  • Group: Posts: Elite Member
  • Posts: 1,530
  • Joined: 25-September 17
  • Gender:Male
  • Simulator:Open Rails
  • Country:

Posted 06 April 2024 - 11:14 PM

Thnaks.

Yes the ORTS parameters do indeed make a difference, but I think ORTSEngineBrakeApplicationRate is not working as it should

from experiment the numbers (for both application and release) seem to need to be approximately 2 times greater than the desired rate of change of pressure of the brake cylinder.


Using air brakes ORTSEngineBrakeApplicationRate only seems to work with

EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyStart

Dummy



Using air brakes the following brake tokens do not seem to be influenced by ORTSEngineBrakeApplicationRate

EngineBrakesControllerFullServiceStart

EngineBrakesControllerApplyStart

EngineBrakesControllerContinuousServiceStart



With air brakes the token

EngineBrakesControllerBrakeNotchStart

does not seem to function at all, so I presume this token is only for steam brakes.


I will do some more tests later with vacuum brakes, steam brakes and manual brakes.


The other matter with air brakes was to have an engine brakes controller with two different application rates as per Westinghouse A-1, 5-ET, 6-ET and 7-EL
for example:

Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.1 0.2
NumNotches ( 5 
 Notch ( 0.0  0 EngineBrakesControllerBailOffStart ORTSLabel ( "Release" ) )
 Notch ( 0.2  0 EngineBrakesControllerReleaseStart ORTSLabel ( "Running" ) )
 Notch ( 0.5  0 EngineBrakesControllerHoldLappedStart ORTSLabel ( "Lap" ) )
 Notch ( 0.7  0 EngineBrakesControllerFullServiceStart  ORTSLabel ( "Slow Application" ) )
 Notch ( 1.0  0 EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ORTSLabel ( "Fast Application" ) ) ) )


At the moment this works because FullService operates at the default rate and Emergency operates at the ORTSEngineBrakeApplicationRate.
Is this the best way of doing this into the future?

#636 User is offline   Weter 

  • Member, Board of Directors
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: ET Admin Group
  • Posts: 8,853
  • Joined: 01-June 20
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Simulator:ORTS
  • Country:

Posted 07 April 2024 - 12:41 AM

Hello.
is token EngineBrakesControllerBailOffStart functional already?
I'd try it then with 254 valve...
I wish it was for "sprung"/"while pressed" I-st position, with spring return of handle to II-st (default, running with setting BC pressure equal to train brake setting, or less - after partial bailoff), as soon, as "[" button is released/depressed.

#637 User is offline   darwins 

  • Superintendant
  • Group: Posts: Elite Member
  • Posts: 1,530
  • Joined: 25-September 17
  • Gender:Male
  • Simulator:Open Rails
  • Country:

Posted 07 April 2024 - 01:22 AM

Yes. EngineBrakesControllerBailOffStart is working, but for steam locomotives it only seems to work on the locomotive and not on the tender.

Sprung or While Pressed brake positions would be ideal for Bail Off or Overcharge notches.
One of the coders did try to make them work, but it proved too difficult to get them to work with both the keyboard and the mouse.

#638 User is offline   Weter 

  • Member, Board of Directors
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: ET Admin Group
  • Posts: 8,853
  • Joined: 01-June 20
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Simulator:ORTS
  • Country:

Posted 07 April 2024 - 01:56 AM

Good news - I have to try it.

#639 User is offline   darwins 

  • Superintendant
  • Group: Posts: Elite Member
  • Posts: 1,530
  • Joined: 25-September 17
  • Gender:Male
  • Simulator:Open Rails
  • Country:

Posted 07 April 2024 - 08:35 AM

This is the situation with brake systems other than air train brake with air locomotive brake.


1. Independent Brake (Steam Brake) with Automatic Vacuum Brake

The system still functions as it should with max brake cylinder pressure approximately equal to actual boiler pressure.

Speed of application and release is governed by EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate and EngineBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate (not by new ORTS parameters)


2. Independent Brake (Steam Brake) with Automatic Air Brake

The maximum brake cylinder pressure no longer increases to approximately equal to actual boiler pressure.

It does not seem possible to change the rate of application and release from the default rates.


3. Independent Brake (Steam Brake) with no train brakes (Manual Braking)

The system still functions as it should with max brake cylinder pressure approximately equal to actual boiler pressure.

Speed of application and release is governed by EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate and EngineBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate (not by new ORTS parameters)


4. Independent Brake (Vacuum Brake pretending to be Direct Air Brake) with Automatic Vacuum Brake

The system still functions as in previous OR versions with the brake cylinder pressure behaving as a vacuum brake would. (Conversion to air brake units is a workaround in cvf file.)

Speed of application and release is governed by EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate and EngineBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate (not by new ORTS parameters)


5. Independent Brake (Direct Air Brake) with no train brakes (Manual Braking)

The system still functions as in previous OR versions with the brake force showing in the force extended HuD, but no brake cylinder pressure visible in HuD or cvf.

It does not seem possible to change the rate of application and release.

#640 User is offline   Traindude 

  • Foreman Of Engines
  • Group: Posts: Contributing Member
  • Posts: 814
  • Joined: 17-November 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle, WA
  • Simulator:Open Rails
  • Country:

Posted 10 April 2024 - 12:55 AM

I though I'd share another proposal/document, this time analyzing various models of Westinghouse steam locomotive air compressor governors, and suggestions for implementing them for future use in ORTS.

Attached File(s)



#641 User is offline   darwins 

  • Superintendant
  • Group: Posts: Elite Member
  • Posts: 1,530
  • Joined: 25-September 17
  • Gender:Male
  • Simulator:Open Rails
  • Country:

Posted 10 April 2024 - 02:42 AM

View PostTraindude, on 10 April 2024 - 12:55 AM, said:

I though I'd share another proposal/document, this time analyzing various models of Westinghouse steam locomotive air compressor governors, and suggestions for implementing them for future use in ORTS.


Thanks for that, it looks very comprehensive. I suspect that the usage of most of those governors, other than the first example, was limited to North America. There is one more option to add though, that of the manually controlled compressor that has no governor at all.

#642 User is online   pschlik 

  • Engineer
  • Group: Posts: Contributing Member
  • Posts: 570
  • Joined: 04-March 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Simulator:OpenRails - Unstable
  • Country:

Posted 24 April 2024 - 09:26 PM

Finally completed the next thing I was working on, an advanced brake cylinder simulation.

By 'advanced' I mean the brake cylinder is not simulated as a static volume with a constant size. Instead, the size is allowed to change depending on the brake cylinder pressure and the settings you enter in. This has some interesting effects, like the brake cylinder pressure 'stalling' as the air pumped in/out of the brake cylinder causes the brake piston to extend/retract instead of causing the pressure to change. (If you pay attention to graphs of brake cylinder pressure vs time, this is where the curve 'flattens' around 5 psi or so.)

Some warning though; this more realistic brake cylinder does not follow the same (simplified) rules that many of us have gotten used to over the last 20 years. While the advanced brake cylinder parameters will be easy to implement in some cases, the code can only make so many guesses before 20 year old .wag file programming gets in the way and doesn't give the brake cylinder pressures you want.

To use the advanced brake cylinder simulation, enter correct values for the brake cylinder tokens I added over a month ago: ORTSBrakeCylinderDiameter, ORTSBrakeCylinderPistonTravel, and ORTSNumberBrakeCylinders. Note that the piston travel is referenced at 50 psi, so if you have a brake cylinder you know reaches 8 inches of travel at 64 psi, the value you actually want to enter is about 7.5 psi.
Also, the old ORTSCylinderSpringPressure token is useful here too: The brake cylinder will rapidly extend from 0 to 80% of the rated travel as the brake cylinder pressure reaches the spring pressure. If you don't define a pressure, then 5 psi is assumed by default and 5 psi is pretty typical, so don't worry too much if you aren't sure what to use.

The advanced simulation will consider the actual volume of the brake cylinder vs the volume of the auxiliary reservoir (don't forget, you can now set the aux res volume with ORTSAuxiliaryResCapacity) unless the brake system has a relay valve of some sort. While this is more realistic, this does mean that an auxiliary res with the wrong size will result in the wrong brake cylinder pressures. As such, Open Rails will attempt to adjust the value of ORTSBrakeCylinderPipingVolume automatically (this will only happen if you do NOT define a piping volume value) to give the expected brake cylinder pressures, depending on the TripleValveRatio used. While this can correct for an aux res that's too large for the brake cylinders (this happens in real life), it can not correct for an auxiliary res that is too small. In such a case, a warning will be produced in the log file.

Of course, if you know what's going on you can manually change ORTSBrakeCylinderPipingVolume to get the pressures you want. Finding the best piping volume can be done with trial and error (bigger piping volume = lower brake cylinder pressures, and vice versa), or with math. This preposterous equation will give the piping volume required for a desired full service brake cylinder pressure (assuming you are working in PSI) from a certain brake pipe pressure:
Spoiler

If this equation returns a negative value, the auxiliary res volume is too small, and you will need to investigate a solution. This may involve setting a larger auxiliary reservoir volume, smaller brake cylinder volume, or converting the brake system to use a relay valve by adding a supply reservoir.


Also added in this update is ORTSBrakeForceReferencePressure. Normally, when you enter a "MaxBrakeForce" or "ORTSMaxBrakeShoeForce", the force will only be achieved when the brake cylinder pressure is at the value set by BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce. Unfortunately, this is not very convenient as many measurements of brake force are not taken at the maximum pressure, but at a pressure somewhere in between 0 and maximum. This is where ORTSBrakeForceReferencePressure comes into play. If ORTSBrakeForceReferencePressure ( 50 psi ) is set, then whatever force you enter in "ORTSMaxBrakeShoeForce" will now occur when the brake cylinder pressure is 50 psi instead of, say, 100 psi. Note that in this case, the "max" brake shoe force value isn't actually the maximum; if the brake cylinder pressure exceeds 50 psi the brake force will increase beyond whatever force you entered.

On a related note, BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce is now an entirely optional token. Not only was this serving the role of reference pressure (no longer required if you use the previous token I mentioned), this would also set the absolute maximum brake cylinder pressure that would ever occur, as if there was a safety valve. Sometimes a safety valve is not realistic, so now if an engine or wagon doesn't have BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce in its file (or if the pressure is set to 0 or negative), then the limit on brake cylinder pressure will be removed entirely. This is not to say the brake cylinder pressure will suddenly shoot off to 10000 psi; the pressure will still follow the air simulation, but it will never be blocked from climbing higher and higher if the simulation justifies it. I recommend using this on any equipment which does not have a limiting valve or safety valve attached to the brake cylinder (ie: most freight stuff).
Note that other pressure limiters, such as ORTSMaxServiceCylinderPressure and ORTSMaxTripleValveCylinderPressure, will still apply. Also, if you choose to remove the pressure limiter, remember to define an ORTSBrakeForceReferencePressure so OR knows how to calculate the brake force. If there's no cylinder pressure limit and no reference pressure, the reference pressure will be assumed to be 64 psi, but that might not be what you want.


Edit: After typing out the equation for brake cylinder piping volume, I realized that this was making the feature hard to use for anyone except me, and that Open Rails could calculate this equation on its own. So I made it so; OR will now automatically calculate the piping volume to (try to) get the brake cylinder pressure you'd expect. TripleValveRatio ( 2.5 ) should be left in your files if you want OR to try and calculate the volume automatically. I'll do it manually, but I don't blame anyone for not wanting to do that.

#643 User is offline   darwins 

  • Superintendant
  • Group: Posts: Elite Member
  • Posts: 1,530
  • Joined: 25-September 17
  • Gender:Male
  • Simulator:Open Rails
  • Country:

Posted 28 April 2024 - 01:27 AM

There may be a bug with U2024.04.27-0208 as service applications with a triple valve ratio of 2.5 using a brake pipe pressure of 70 psi are giving aux res 50 psi but BC only 24 psi.

#644 User is online   pschlik 

  • Engineer
  • Group: Posts: Contributing Member
  • Posts: 570
  • Joined: 04-March 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Simulator:OpenRails - Unstable
  • Country:

Posted 28 April 2024 - 07:47 PM

Using any tokens to set the volume/dimensions of the brake cylinder? If you set the volume of the brake cylinder manually it won't matter what the triple valve ratio is; if you set an aux res size of 1000 cubic inches and a brake cylinder volume of 1000 cubic inches OR will determine you actually are using a triple valve ratio of 1.0, no matter what you enter (unless there's a relay valve).

#645 User is offline   darwins 

  • Superintendant
  • Group: Posts: Elite Member
  • Posts: 1,530
  • Joined: 25-September 17
  • Gender:Male
  • Simulator:Open Rails
  • Country:

Posted 28 April 2024 - 09:27 PM

Yes. I forgot them. Took the brake cylinder sizes out and put some back again - realising that ORTSAuxiliaryResCapacity( ) does not work alone with TripleValveRatio ( )

  • 48 Pages +
  • « First
  • 41
  • 42
  • 43
  • 44
  • 45
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users