[YoRyan]

 Genma Saotome, on 23 July 2020 - 03:46 PM, said:

I suggest slowing down for a bit. Let's return to defining the basic concepts and then finding the right name for them AFTER we agree on the concepts.

Using what I think are neutral terms, I think we have

• A collection of rolling stock that moves from point A to B or beyond. KUJU called this consist. Railroaders call this train.
  
• Subsets of the above defined to facilitate movements to different end points. No KUJU name, block, section, set, group may describe this.
  
• In some locations a subset made up exclusively of the powered units (i.e. locomotives) may be named. Examples include lashup, consist.
  
• Individual distinct items gathered together in the above subset. KUJU called these engine, carriage, wagon. Alternative names include locomotive, car, coach, etc. as well as the generic term rolling stock.

• I'm pretty sure we all agree there are many instances of item 4 that make up one item 2 If that concept is retained, and if not then they make up one item #1.
  
• If Item 2 is retained then one or more of these make up Item #1.
  
• If item #3 is retained then item #1 is composed of one or more item #3, and one or more Item2 or 4.

Ok, I like this way of thinking. The consist format is not the appropriate location for item #2 because engines and wagons, by themselves, have no association with origins and destinations. I also do not believe item #3 is very useful. Consists can contain both engines and wagons, so it makes no sense to bifurcate the format into "wagon consists" and "engine consists." The distinction between "unpowered wagon" and "powered engine" is also blurry for hybrid items like multiple units and control cars, which are essential in passenger operations.

Ultimately, what we have is a sequence of wagons and engines that can also reference other sequences.

 Genma Saotome, on 23 July 2020 - 04:01 PM, said:

In addition to the above may I suggest the entire topic of a Locomotive being composed of one or more .eng and .wag files be sat aside for later discussion?

Certainly. This needs to wait for the eventual native engine format.

[YoRyan]

 Haran Banjo, on 23 July 2020 - 04:21 PM, said:

With new unstable version U2020.07.23-2006 consists don't work, it's impossible to do anything, the game can not start in any way

Thanks for the report, and sorry! I broke the launcher functionality while renaming and refactoring the classes. Watch your step; this is an active construction site!

[conductorchris]

Ultimately, what we have is a sequence of wagons and engines that can also reference other sequences.

Yes!

And not only reference, but also choose from (using the randomization or preferred functions).

[Haran Banjo]

how do you create consists with this new system?

[YoRyan]

With a text editor - at least until we get a proper editor.

Use the .train-or extension for the new files and place them in TRAINS\LISTS.

[Haran Banjo]

 YoRyan, on 24 July 2020 - 07:42 AM, said:

With a text editor - at least until we get a proper editor.

Use the .train-or extension for the new files and place them in TRAINS\LISTS.

Can you explain better these steps?

[YoRyan]

To make myself clear on the naming problem, I think that using conductorchris's scheme is the way to go:

• "Train" name
  
• ".train-or" file extension
  
• Train files to be located in TRAINS\LISTS subdirectory
  
• No block, set, or group hierarchies

[James Ross]

 YoRyan, on 18 July 2020 - 03:08 PM, said:

I see. Nevertheless, the feature has been implemented, and to me, it seems useful. Perhaps there is a middle ground whereby we could mark this option as especially experimental. A consist editor could also offer to correct profile names that are missing or have been renamed.

Sure, that sounds good.

 YoRyan, on 18 July 2020 - 03:08 PM, said:

What I meant to say is that within a single file, you cannot embed a Link consist in another Link consist, or a Random consist in a Link consist, etc.; you must split off the "sub-consist" into a new .consist-or file and link to it with a Consist reference. There are no restrictions on Consist -> Consist links except that they themselves cannot be recursive, so A -> A is prohibited, and so is A -> B -> C -> A.

Great, thanks for clearing that up for me.

 Genma Saotome, on 20 July 2020 - 06:04 PM, said:

Rather than carrying a name along from MSTS days it would be better to leave it behind -- and do so with as many of them as possible so when the old word gets used in conversation or code everyone knows it means only the KUJU definition. THAT is why I recommend Train and Block over sonsist, that is why I think Operation should replace Activity, .fcar and .pcar replace .wag. Hanging on to obsoleted names impairs understanding and leave to door wide open to making mistakes. One is not going to make a typo with .Block, nor misunderstand on receiving that file that it will not be the same as if it were .con; The name and all of its contents are new.

A bunch of interesting names here I'd not seen before (but I've been bad at keeping up with the forum).

I am in favour of coming up with a new set of names for things (including splitting things KUJU didn't), however, we are in a slightly delicate place with the new format because it currently has to interoperate with KUJU's files and directory structure. I hope we can change that soon, but for the moment that's where it's going.

 YoRyan, on 22 July 2020 - 11:36 PM, said:

Okay, I have adopted the "Train" name for the new classes. "train-or" files shall reside in the TRAINS\LISTS folder. The "Consist" directive now refers explicitly to an MSTS consist. The "Train" directive has been added to refer to other OR train files. (The specification in the OP has been updated.)

I like this new name, but I am not sure about extending the KUJU directory structure. The "train-or" file format should serve as a similar improvement on "con" files in KUJU directories to how "dds" works with "ace"; extending the directory structure gives the wrong impression IMHO.

 YoRyan, on 22 July 2020 - 11:36 PM, said:

But this raises another question - what should be done about the GUI? Virtually every other part of the simulator - the launcher, the HUD, the manual - still uses the term "consist." If we're serious about this terminology change, it seems to me that all instances of "consist" would need to be replaced with "train," which would entail a significant amount of effort. "Show both" is not an option because having two identical "play with a consist" and "play with a train" modes would hardly be very user-friendly.

Any such change in global terminology should come after the next release (1.4), even if the new file format is included, so that we have ample time to find and update such uses. Please keep everything using the "consist" and other existing terminology in the interface for now.

[YoRyan]

 James Ross, on 25 July 2020 - 03:11 AM, said:

I like this new name, but I am not sure about extending the KUJU directory structure. The "train-or" file format should serve as a similar improvement on "con" files in KUJU directories to how "dds" works with "ace"; extending the directory structure gives the wrong impression IMHO.

I see, and this position makes sense given that .train-or files are able to substitute for .con ones. I will revert to using the CONSISTS directory.

 James Ross, on 25 July 2020 - 03:11 AM, said:

Any such change in global terminology should come after the next release (1.4), even if the new file format is included, so that we have ample time to find and update such uses. Please keep everything using the "consist" and other existing terminology in the interface for now.

Agreed.

[Haran Banjo]

I want to point out that even in the new unstable version U2020.07.25-1706 some consists do not work, because they appear to be missing

This problem still occurs in the release U2020.07.26-0051