[disc]

James Ross, on 08 April 2014 - 12:35 AM, said:

I don't believe you can animate these primitives at all.

Can't be done like this?: if the object has animation, then rendered as it is now. If doesn't, then it can be batched. The most of the scenery objects aren't animated at all.

[James Ross]

disc, on 08 April 2014 - 02:48 AM, said:

Can't be done like this?: if the object has animation, then rendered as it is now. If doesn't, then it can be batched. The most of the scenery objects aren't animated at all.

Sure, that's exactly how instancing works currently; animated scenery is left as-is. My point is that you can animate instanced models (it's just not implement yet), but if you batch things up you can't. I don't think batching general scenery is a particularly worthwhile endeavour.

[gpz]

James Ross, on 08 April 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

My point is that you can animate instanced models (it's just not implement yet), but if you batch things up you can't. I don't think batching general scenery is a particularly worthwhile endeavour.

All right, I believe it. Just a small note: I meant batching would be applied after instancing, on the remaining objects, not before.

(Just a little explanation to others: instancing can be done for objects with same geometry and material, while batching could be done for objects with same material but different geometry.)

[Genma Saotome]

Batching would be a HUGE aid to my routes as my models use a lot of generic textures that are shared widely. I think it would also be a HUGE aid for Scalerail, DBTracks, and any road set anywhere there are large numbers of them placed.

[roeter]

Seems not all is well with instancing.
Below is without instancing, bottom is with instancing enabled.


It's nice that all similar objects are drawn as one instance, would be even nicer if the were drawn in their proper places.
If you're wondering what to look for : all 'sausages' have been removed from their posts, and there's only one remaining which hangs over the left-hand track in the middle of the station.
This is a 'private' route, so I'm afraid it's not available for download.

Regards,
Rob Roeterdink

[dennisat]

roeter, on 08 April 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Seems not all is well with instancing.

I bet this is the same as my observation in a previous post. My "sausage" is the night "light cone" and if you could see the "light cones" on the platform lamps, they wouldn't be there, if you see what I mean!

Dennis

Attached thumbnail(s)

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[dennisat]

I have been experimenting all day with JP1streetlight1.s (the platform lamp) and I cannot work out why it should appear as it does when instancing is used.

I know very little about model structure so I wonder if an expert could take a look at the model and see if there is anything unusual about it. It doesn't seem very complex. It is in the JAPAN1 folder.

Instancing makes such a marked improvement to a heavily scenerised route that I think it's worth getting to the bottom of why some models do not show properly when it is in use.

Dennis

[James Ross]

dennisat, on 09 April 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

I have been experimenting all day with JP1streetlight1.s (the platform lamp) and I cannot work out why it should appear as it does when instancing is used.

I know very little about model structure so I wonder if an expert could take a look at the model and see if there is anything unusual about it. It doesn't seem very complex. It is in the JAPAN1 folder.

Instancing makes such a marked improvement to a heavily scenerised route that I think it's worth getting to the bottom of why some models do not show properly when it is in use.

Don't worry, I'll be on the case soon. :cheers3:

[Genma Saotome]

To buttress the argument that this is useful, here's a real example of the results from the Goose Island route:

124	sr_1tbuffer_c.s	
69	sr_1tcrv_c_00150r01d.s	
65	sr_1tend_c_06d.s	
51	sr_1tstr_c_005m.s	
47	sr_1tstr_c_005_5m.s	
45	sr_1tbuffer_c.s	
42	sr_1tcrv_c_00060r20d.s	
41	sr_1tstr_c_025m.s	
34	sr_1tstr_c_005_5m.s	
31	sr_1tstr_c_015m.s	
28	sr_1tend_c_06d.s	
27	sr_1tstr_c_030m.s	
26	sr_1tstr_c_025m.s	
24	sr_1tstr_c_040m.s	
23	sr_1tbuffer_c.s	
22	sr_1tcrv_c_00150r05d.s	
22	sr_1tstr_c_005m.s	
22	sr_xtend_c_06db.s	
21	sr_1tstr_c_010m.s	
20	sr_1tstr_c_020m.s	
19	sr_xtcrv_c_00150r01db.s	
17	sr_1tcrv_c_00120r10d.s	
16	sr_1tcrv_c_00060r10d.s	
16	sr_xtend_c_06dd.s	
15	sr_1tcrv_c_00060r20d.s	
15	sr_1tcrv_c_00150r01d.s	
15	sr_xtcrv_c_00150r01da.s	
14	sr_1tcrv_c_00120r01d.s	
14	sr_1tcrv_c_00120r05d.s	
14	sr_1tstr_c_050m.s	
14	sr_1tcrv_c_00090r01d.s	
13	sr_1tcrv_c_00060r20d.s	
13	sr_1tstr_w_010m.s	
13	sr_xtcrv_c_00150r01db.s	
13	sr_2tstr_c_005m.s	
13	sr_1tend_w_06d.s	
12	sr_1tcrv_c_00075r10d.s	
12	sr_2tstr_c_020m.s	
11	sr_1tcrv_c_00090r20d.s	
11	slw_066a_2ls_100m.s	
11	sr_1tstr_c_020m.s	
11	gi_cabrini_green_08x.s	
10	sr_1tstr_c_100m.s	
10	slw_066a_2ls_050m.s	
10	sr_1tstr_w_005_5m.s	
10	gi_cabrini_green_16a.s	
9	sr_1tcrv_w_01000r01d.s	
9	sr_1tstr_w_005_5m.s	
9	sr_1tstr_c_080m.s	
9	sr_1tend_c_06dx.s	
9	slw_066a_2ls_002m.s	
9	slw_066a_2l-2lt_90d.s	
9	slw_066a_sw10_050m.s	
9	slw_066a_sw10_2l-2lx_90d.s	
9	slw_066a_sw10_100m.s	
9	sr_1tstr_c_030m.s	
9	sr_xtcrv_c_00150r01dd.s	
9	sr_1tcrv_c_00090r05d.s	
8	sr_1tend_c_06dx.s	
8	sr_xtcrv_w_00500r01de.s	
8	sr_xtcrv_w_00500r01dd.s	
8	sr_xtcrv_w_01000r01db.s	
8	sr_xtcrv_c_00060r10db.s	
8	sr_xtend_c_06db.s	
8	sr_1tcrv_c_00100r10d.s	
8	sr_1tstr_c_070m.s	
8	sr_1tcrv_c_00090r10d.s	
8	sr_1tstr_c_060m.s	
8	slw_066a_2l-2lx_90d.s	
8	sr_1tcrv_c_00150r05d.s	
8	sr_1tstr_c_040m.s	
8	sr_xtcrv_c_00090r10db.s	
8	sr_1tstr_w_005m.s	
7	sr_1tcrv_c_00120r10d.s	
7	sr_1tstr_w_005m.s	
7	sr_1tstr_c_005_5m.s	
7	sr_1tstr_c_015m.s	
7	sr_xtcrv_w_00500r05db.s	
7	sr_1tcrv_c_00500r02d.s	
7	sr_1tcrv_c_00090r05d.s	
7	sr_2tstr_c_040m.s	
7	slw_066a_2ls_250m.s	
7	slw_066a_sw10_002m.s	
7	slw_066a_sw10_080m.s	
7	sr_1tstr_c_005_5m.s	
7	sr_xtcrv_c_00090r10da.s	
7	sr_xtend_c_06da.s	
7	sr_xtcrv_c_00060r10da.s	
7	sr_xtcrv_c_00060r10db.s	
7	sr_1tstr_w_025m.s	
6	sr_1tend_c_06d.s	
6	sr_1tcrv_c_00250r05d.s	
6	sr_1tstr_c_025m.s	
6	sr_2tstr_w_005m.s	
6	sr_1tcrv_c_00075r05d.s	
6	sr_2tstr_c_030m.s	
6	sr_xtend_c_06dd.s	
6	sr_1tstr_c_250m.s	
6	slw_066a_2ls_080m.s	
6	slw_066a_2ls_065m.s	
6	slw_066a_sw10_011m.s	
6	sr_1tstr_c_070m.s	
6	sr_1tstr_c_050m.s	
6	sr_2tstr_c_020m.s	
6	sr_1tstr_c_001m.s	
5	sr_1tend_w_03dx2.s	
5	sr_2tstr_w_020m.s	
5	sr_xtcrv_w_00340r10de.s	
5	sr_xtcrv_w_01000r01dd.s	
5	sr_1tcrv_w_00500r01d.s	
5	sr_xtcrv_w_00500r01db.s	
5	sr_1tcrv_w_00500r05d.s	
5	sr_xtcrv_w_00500r05da.s	
5	sr_xtcrv_w_01000r01da.s	
5	sr_1tstr_w_010_2m.s	
5	sr_1tcrv_w_00340r01d.s	
5	sr_1tstr_w_025m.s	
5	sr_2tstr_c_005m.s	
5	sr_1tcrv_c_00100r05d.s	
5	sr_xtcrv_c_00150r10db.s	
5	sr_1tcrv_c_00250r05d.s	
5	sr_1tcrv_c_00150r10d.s	
5	slw_066a_2ls_003m.s	
5	slw_066a_sw10_003m.s	
5	slw_066a_sw10_004m.s	
5	slw_066a_sw10_250m.s	
5	slw_066a_sw10_040m.s	
5	slw_066a_sw10_2l-2lt_90d.s	
5	sr_2tstr_c_020m.s	
5	sr_1tstr_c_020m.s	
5	sr_1tstr_c_010m.s	
5	sr_1tstr_c_100m.s	
5	sr_1tcrv_c_00150r10d.s	
5	sr_xtcrv_c_00090r10dd.s	
5	sr_xtcrv_c_00090r05dd.s	
5	sr_xtcrv_c_00090r05db.s	
1718		

That's 1718 instances reduced to just 136 sets. All but 2 lines (21 objects) are track or road shapes.

Each of those 1718 instances required at least 4 draw calls. What was not apparent tho was any appreciable difference in fps. I'll try to find time to do some before & after comparisons... primitives and fps.

James, you might consider dropping the threshold of what's "instanced" from 5 to 4 or maybe even 3. I think trading "depth" (instances per shape) for breadth (lots more sets) could add up enough to make it worthwhile.

[James Ross]

Genma Saotome, on 11 April 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

That's 1718 instances reduced to just 136 sets. All but 2 lines (21 objects) are track or road shapes.

Good data.

Genma Saotome, on 11 April 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

James, you might consider dropping the threshold of what's "instanced" from 5 to 4 or maybe even 3. I think trading "depth" (instances per shape) for breadth (lots more sets) could add up enough to make it worthwhile.

There is certainly a balance to be struck, as I found that too low a threshold actually started making performance worse again. Of the values I tested, 5 was the peak, but it'll naturally vary somewhat due to the differing scenery.

To give some hard numbers, I started the London & Port Stanley activity "T08 Morning Run" and switched to the cab camera. With my OR settings (which included dynamic shadows but the default 2K view distance and no auto-tune) this starts off with 10.9k primitives and 8.8k shadow primitives at 17 FPS.

A threshold of 25 barely helps at all, with the values being 10.7k / 8.8k / 18 FPS.

Down to 10 and it's making a difference: 7.3k / 6.1k / 23 FPS.

At 5 it's doing the best: 5.9k / 5.0k / 25 FPS.

But at 2, it's back up: 5.4k / 4.9k / 23 FPS.

And at 1, so everything is instanced, it is: 5.4k / 4.9k / 21 FPS.

So even with the drop of 0.5k primitives from 5 down to 2, it actually lost 2 FPS due to the extra overhead for instancing calls (I believe) vs non-instancing. I was going through a big range then (100, 50, 25, 10, 5, 2, 1) but now we've had some experience with it I might re-run the test with a range more like (10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1).