Elvas Tower: Steam effects for diesel locomotives and passenger cars - Elvas Tower

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Steam effects for diesel locomotives and passenger cars Additional parameter

#61 User is offline   copperpen 

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 12:09 PM

The problem with current steam/smoke emissions is that they are generally displayed as puffs regardless of what the steam is supposed to represent. The puffs are not even in time with the exhaust beats either most of the time.

The main exhaust should really be a continuous stream of thin smoke when at rest with a continuous wisp of steam to represent the blower when used. This stream should then be bolstered by the main cylinder exhausts for 2 3 or 4 cylinders. Cylinder cocks when open issue a very fast expanding steady stream that alternates between cylinder ends. Ancillaries such as turbo generators and injectors also emit a steady stream of steam, no puffs. The only item that puffs other than the engine cylinders is the air pump that also has a double cylinder.

#62 User is offline   jared2982 

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 05:10 AM

View Postcopperpen, on 16 August 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

The problem with current steam/smoke emissions is that they are generally displayed as puffs regardless of what the steam is supposed to represent. The puffs are not even in time with the exhaust beats either most of the time.

The main exhaust should really be a continuous stream of thin smoke when at rest with a continuous wisp of steam to represent the blower when used. This stream should then be bolstered by the main cylinder exhausts for 2 3 or 4 cylinders. Cylinder cocks when open issue a very fast expanding steady stream that alternates between cylinder ends. Ancillaries such as turbo generators and injectors also emit a steady stream of steam, no puffs. The only item that puffs other than the engine cylinders is the air pump that also has a double cylinder.


This is a very good explanation of how steam exhaust should work. I hope someone takes notice that has the knowledge to work on it.

#63 User is offline   steamer_ctn 

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 11:06 PM

In #3937 some of the suggestions offered in this thread have been added to the latest update of the steam effects.

i) Steam heating boiler (shown as the third exhaust on the locomotive) has been lightened up.
ii) HEP generator has been added, as well as a "wood smoke" effect, as shown on the third wagon.

Some concerns have been raised about the smoke coming in "puffs". This appears to be as a result of the way the particle emitter attempts to draw the smoke effect. It appears to be exacerbated when non-black smoke is used. Unfortunately the particle drawer is very much a mystery to me so I suspect that I will not have the expertise to modify it.

As a result of some overlaps in code some configuration changes were necessary for the ENG and WAG file configurations.

To implement the effects as shown in the attached screenshot the following type of code needs to be added to the WAG section of the cars:

Effects (
    	SpecialEffects (

Comment ( == Steam Heating Hose Leak == )  
   	HeatingHoseFX (
				0.0 0.6 -11.64
					0 -1 0
					0.1
			)

Comment ( == Wagon Generator Smoke == )			
   	WagonGeneratorFX (
				0.0 4.66 9.19
					0 1 0
					0.1
					
			)			

Comment ( == Wagon Smoke == )             	
   	WagonSmokeFX (
				0.0 4.66 7.19
					0 1 0
					0.2	
   		
  	)
   )
 )   


I believe that these types of effects provide all the "relevant" ones worth modelling.

I am wondering whether it is worth while adding relevant coding to adjust the car / locomotive wagon physics as the weight of the car changes due to fuel and/or water consumption. Based upon some info that I have found a steam boiler might use 150 gallons (uk) of water an hour, and 15.5 gallons (uk) of diesel.

The other aspect is that the effects are currently "permanently" on, and maybe there needs to be a means to turn them on and off.

Thus to finish off these features, I would like to establish a small ad-hoc test team who have an interest in using these features to work with me to develop and test a few simple scenarios were these features might be used.

If you are interested please let me know.

Attached thumbnail(s)

  • Attached Image: steam_effects.jpg


#64 User is offline   SP 0-6-0 

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 05:55 PM

There are definitely situations that would call for cutting of the HEP supply as it subtracts a substantial amount of power from the diesel locomotives main engine when talking about older HEP units. Amtrak has to cut the HEP sometimes to make Cuesta Grade for instance.

It would be very worth while to model the physics effects on the locomotives so equipped. Whether it be the loss of traction when the water tanks on a EMD F7 or E8 are getting low or the additional loss of fuel oil in the tanks as the steam boiler is burning for smaller Alco and EMD switchers with small fuel tanks.

Further there should be a connection between the control and firing of the steam generator and the effects on the steam heating of passenger cars since this feature already exists.

For HEP there needs to be the physics of the shaft driven AC alternator coupled to the diesel engine and the effects on available power for traction to pull the train.

Also there should be the option of having a locomotive have HEP failure and the cars go dark. Further there should be a system to control the HEP and have it control the lighting and Heat/AC on the passenger cars.

The loco whether supplying steam heat or HEP should have control of the steam heat/HEP on the passenger cars bottom line.

Next and this is just as important. For HEP there needs to be the connection between the HEP and it's different modes and resulting affects on the locomotives sounds. For older units the engine has to rev at near or at full RPM. There is a very real difference between a engine running at full power and a generator pulling a full load and running at full power in the sounds of the engine unit.

Lastly. As on the Erie Lackawanna NJT transit U34CH there is a selector switch for different modes. Can different states be modeled to reflect this?

I can get more specific about how this works if needs to be. It was covered in the first two links of the video I put up about these mighty GE U34CH units. There setup is very similar to HEP on most GE and EMD units of the time.

Can the code account for both exhaust from the steam boiler and the steam release and blow off valves?

I would personally like to see the ability to control both steam heat and HEP from the cab. This would make for some very interesting activity possibilities for both US and UK trains from the 1930's to the 1990's. The firemen on diesels back in the day had the primary job of tending to the steam heating boiler as they very fussy machines.

Robert

#65 User is offline   steamer_ctn 

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 09:19 PM

Hi Robert,

View PostSP 0-6-0, on 03 September 2017 - 05:55 PM, said:

There are definitely situations that would call for cutting of the HEP supply as it subtracts a substantial amount of power from the diesel locomotives main engine when talking about older HEP units. Amtrak has to cut the HEP sometimes to make Cuesta Grade for instance.

It would be very worth while to model the physics effects on the locomotives so equipped. Whether it be the loss of traction when the water tanks on a EMD F7 or E8 are getting low or the additional loss of fuel oil in the tanks as the steam boiler is burning for smaller Alco and EMD switchers with small fuel tanks.

Further there should be a connection between the control and firing of the steam generator and the effects on the steam heating of passenger cars since this feature already exists.

.................. SNIP

Thanks for the feedback.

I don't think that their is value in reproducing all possible features, however I am happy to explore the features that impact the "driving" of the locomotive (impact its performance) further.

As suggested in the earlier post I will need a small team of testers to support further development of the code.

Thanks

#66 User is offline   SP 0-6-0 

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 11:33 AM

Peter, Please watch the first video from the 14:17 mark to the end. Video

Please watch the second link from start to the 1:50 mark. Video 2

This covers the selector switch for the locomotives different modes.

There is also a good explanation of the physics and sound characteristics of HEP units.

Just modeling the effects side does not really work well. There is a good bit of affect on the locomotives main engine providing HEP and thus the physics should be able to reflect this.

Robert

#67 User is offline   steamer_ctn 

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 11:37 PM

Hi Robert,

View PostSP 0-6-0, on 04 September 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

Just modeling the effects side does not really work well. There is a good bit of affect on the locomotives main engine providing HEP and thus the physics should be able to reflect this.

Thanks for the explanation links. They were very interesting.

I agree that the physics is important, and this is my main area of interest for OR.

I don't think that there is value in trying to model all the different scenarios, as the coding effort may not be worth the value of the feature, so it becomes a question of what ones are the best value to put effort into?

To devote more time to these features, I am still in need of assistance to do such as you are doing in providing research material, but also just as importantly, some testers, etc.

Are you interested in helping with the testing?

#68 User is offline   Howky 

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:25 AM

It's good to deal with steam heaters on locomotives and wagons, but it would have a bit to end up :)

Here is a link to the Slovak page describing the steam generator and its scheme.
http://www.zeleznicn...%20inform%E1cie

Alternatively, it is possible to set the steam generator to take power from the locomotive and have the option to set multiple parameters of the steam generator.


for example, to enable or disable the valves at the start and end of the locomotive / wagon

https://s26.postimg.org/veizxnxat/ventily_1.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/4hz0pcehh/ventily_2.jpg

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 05:16 PM

Peter, I would be interested in testing some of these features but ORTS is not my main simulator and my understanding of ORTS eng/wag file physics are very limited.

Robert

#70 User is offline   steamer_ctn 

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 05:55 PM

Hi Robert,

View PostSP 0-6-0, on 05 September 2017 - 05:16 PM, said:

I would be interested in testing some of these features but ORTS is not my main simulator and my understanding of ORTS eng/wag file physics are very limited.

Thanks for that.

I will PM you to discuss what could be done.

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