[James Ross]

In order to answer the following and likely more questions about moving forward with Open Rails, we are introducing an opt-in anonymous telemetry system.

• Can we drop support for Windows 7?
  
• Can we drop support for Direct3D Feature Level 9_1 and 9_3?

What data will be collected?

You can browse the code updates which display the information in the log file and utilities, which will also be used for this telemetry. The following example shows what we'll collect about the application (Open Rails), runtime (.NET), system (OS), and hardware:

Application = Open Rails U2023.11.23-0122 (X64)
Runtime     = .NET Framework 4.8.9181.0
System      = Microsoft Windows 11 Home 10.0.22621 (X64; en-GB; en-GB,en-US,ja-JP)
Memory      = 32,592 MB
CPU         = 12th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-1255U (GenuineIntel; 12 threads; 2,600 MHz)
GPU         = Intel(R) Iris(R) Xe Graphics (Intel Corporation; 1,024 MB)
Direct3D    = 12_1,12_0,11_1,11_0,10_1,10_0,9_3,9_2,9_1

Where will data be sent?

All telemetry will be sent to telemetry.openrails.org (nothing there currently). It will be collected by this web application (nothing there currently), which will also provide processing and analysis functions later.

How is it anonymised?

Only the information shown above will be collected, which contains no personally identifying information. However, since specific combinations of data (e.g. CPU + GPU) might narrow down data to specific users (even if we cannot identify them), we will only store and process the data in the following ways:

• Analysing a single field's range of values (e.g. users grouped by GB of system memory)
  
• Analysing multiple fields as cutoffs (e.g. how many users have >= 8 GB system memory and Direct3D >= 10_0)

Additionally, if any analysis we perform returns too few users in a group, we may choose to keep the results private to avoid potential singling out users.

What about IP addresses?

We cannot avoid IP addresses when an application communicates with a server; however, we will not be able to link them to any telemetry because:

• IP addresses will only be recorded in the standard web server access logs
  
• Telemetry data will be recorded without a timestamp (i.e. only the date)

Thus, we will not be able to link the data back together later. The code for this web application (nothing there currently) will be public to validate this claim.

Who will have access to data?

All telemetry data will be securely stored on my server, which already hosts a number of other Open Rails items (e.g. update checks). Nobody else has been granted access to the server, but Chris (ORMT) and Mythic Beasts (the hosts) may be able to access it through the administrative control panels.

We will be providing processing and analysis functions in this web application (nothing there currently), which will read the data and provide aggregated information as a public website.

How will opt-in work?

We want to collect this data from only a small sample of users (at least initially) so, when you launch Open Rails, it will assign you a random number from 1-1000 and save it. If that number within the chosen boundary (e.g. 1-10 would select 1% of users), we will explicitly ask you about the telemetry. You will have three options:

• Yes - opt-in saved
  
• No - opt-out saved
  
• Later

If you choose to opt-in or opt-out, we'll save that and never ask again (unless we want to change the data collected). You will always be able to change your decision in the menu and we will not be collecting any information on opt-in or opt-out. Even if you are not "selected", you will always be able to opt-in or opt-out in the menu, so anyone can participate.

When is the data collected?

Similar to the existing update checks, the telemetry is only collected and sent when you run Open Rails. If you do run Open Rails, telemetry will only be collected once per week. It will be automatically uploaded after collection. Your computer will need to be online to send the telemetry.

Current status

• Decide on data to collect
  
• Decide on data format - JSON
  
• Decide on data collection system - probably .NET web app?
  
• Update Data Collector and log file with new data - in progress
  
• Add invitation system
  
• Add invitation screen
  
• Add data collection system

Questions?

[Eldorado.Railroad]

Not only questions. but commentary as well

Why is this important to do NOW?

Somewhere, whether on this site, or elsewhere I have seen a graph of O/S used with Open Rails. Why would you want/need even more telemetry WRT O/S running Open Rails?

To my knowledge certain users of Open Rails (or ANY other O/S and/or programs) eschew even more tracking/spying/"telemetry"/"surveillance capitalism" and last but not least, SaaS. To what domain EXACTLY is this user information going to?

I have a severe skepticism about anonymous data collection. Short of using some kind of VPN/TOR network IPs can and will be collected. With that, comes geolocation of where the user resides. I don't think I would feel comfortable broadcasting what equipment I am using in Open Rails to the world at large. Heaven forbid that a precise geolocation would give the unscrupulous the knowledge of what hardware there is to steal. How is one to know that those IPs will not be filtered to block out certain addresses, that may provide unwanted data that is not inline with the stated goals which are:

Kill Win 7 support
Kill DX 9.x

Even if the desired outcome as outlined above is achieved are we once again in a hurry to cast off as many users as possible by killing Win 7, however "small" that number may be?

I doubt very much that you will allow anybody to audit exactly what raw data is being collected on the chosen destination domain. Personally, I think this raw data collection should be transparent for anyone to see, otherwise don't do it. With this kind of telemetry you invite users to block access to the collection site via the router as a precaution. Given that Open Rails already notifies a user that an upgrade is available, blocking access to the domain that does the notification might not be the desired outcome.

Maybe you are trying to avoid a "Lennart Poettering" moment by asking "permission" to do this? If you want to kill Win 7 and Kill DX 9.x, I think you will do this regardless of whatever data is collected.

The chosen O/S that Open Rails operates in already "phones home" with a very UNCLEAR "anonymized" data set of what the user is doing with their setup, as part of the EULA with that corporation. Why would somebody want to do this in addition?

I need not remind you of what the priorities really are for users of Open Rails. I think the focus should be there and not trying to push "perceived luddites" off the Open Rails users list. There have been demonstrable changes in performance going from XNA to Monogame. But once in Monogame, aside from much needed/added extra functionality that has been added I cannot see what monumental software performance improvements have been achieved in Open Rails.

Whatever gains that are to be had are from hardware changes only, namely newer and more expensive CPU/GPU/Chipset/Ram/etc combinations. The demonstration collection output you have supplied indicates Windows 11. I think it would be wise to tell our users that the "imposed" requirements for Windows 11 is also TPM 2.0. Sure, throw out your perfectly usable hardware that works with Windows 7/10 as they do not have TPM 2.0. That is what Microsoft wants you to do. I think that it is important to give users the benefit of the doubt that they might use their WIn XP/7 machine to run certain software Open Rails/Blender/TSM/FSX/Prepar3d/etc with no intention of using internet clients to connect to the internet. What price progress?


Steve

[steved]

Draw a line.
Anything after that is not guaranteed to work with deprecated software. Don't even ask.
We have fully functional versions that work with Win xp, Win 7, Win 10. At least as well as MSTS worked.
Why hold everybody else back because I drive a 1994 F150.

Randy

[Weter]

Thanks, Steve, for that thoughts. There is a lot to think about.
And, what could I add:
While having no intentions to blame ORMT's strategy/going onto conflict, I can state, that MG migration didn't give any benefit in graphics on my side so far.
It was explained about yet not used full potential of MG, and about the fact, that MSTS models will always look the same way - whether would it be MG or UE.
I can understand XNA is discontinued and payware - so staying with it is a dead-end (objectively), but all, I have now with MG - is inability to use 2009-dated hardware with w7 to run ORTS. Furthermore, some kind of malfunction have appeared (the reason is unknown) and that hardware crashes now, even during watching YouTube.
Okay, newer laptop was bought - "for perspective (next some years)" =minus $900. ORTS is ruunig and shows 30-60 fps - amazing! but... as with that w10's behavior, I do see the REASON to keep it offline forever, for prevention of said "anonymized", but actually hidden from me as a user "telemetry" and unwanted autoupdates, which I can't turn off (w7 did allow to do so!) And now? ORTS is going to do the same? What is opt-out? Will it be true block of "calling back home", or will it turn such "activity" hidden from me, plus marking: "this user did express his disagreement with surveliance" eh? As with w10, where I feel, i'm not an owner of PC, but took it as a rent from M$, which actually control everything and records all I do with that?
Yes, there's a lot to think about.

[Jonatan]

I am automatically against any form of data collection and will opt out wherever such an option is availible. I'm already fighting Micro$oft, Googl£ etc on that front, why should I need to fight you as well?

I'd stick with W7 if I could but am using W10, now I'm holding off the cursed demons at the gates trying to force me onto 11!

[Weter]

So, I hold that veteran-laptop with w7 for internet surfing and downloading stuff, then decompression, AV scanning and transfering needed files only to offline gaming laptop.

[ATSF3751]

Please explain why this is even necessary? If someone wants to use windows 7 let them! We have working versions of Open Rails and if they continue to use the older versions they will just not get updates of new versions! I do not get why the Open Rails team tends to just do stuff without letting the users know about it first? You did this with MonoGame and now you are doing this opt-in anonymous telemetry system. Forcing even more people away that have been with Open Rails since the beginning is not a good idea! Sure I want to see Open Rails go farther but this is NOT the way to do it. The more the ORMT pushes people away the farther down the rabbit hole OR will end up going and not be able to dig its self out!

Why is the ORMT holding back from updating just because a few users are using older systems like XP and Win7. There is no need for this and you are only holding back the ones who have updated systems and are capable of having a high powered Train Simulator!

Yes I understand the ORMT wants and needs more data to move forward but I do not believe this is the way to do it. A simple poll on Elvastower and Trainsim would do the trick and give you most of the data you need!

I have many questions about this so called Data collection!

When will it start?
Why is it needed?
Who is it going too?
What will the ORMT gain from doing this?
How long will this be taking place?
Will OR always be doing this from now on?
Is there a better way for the ORMT to be collecting data other then this option?

Just my thoughts and opinion is all.

Brandon

[Weter]

I've read (ORMT sessions thread) the opposite about the idea:
statiscics, about what system most users have, will let ORMT know, when to switch to w10 only program.
OTOH, why not to offer user to answer some poll questions manually and optionally, while downloading ORTS?
One can answer all of them, part of them, or skip poll, then download distributive.
With those backdoor telemetry, our beloved "...rails" are turning to be Closed Rails, isn't it?

[Genma Saotome]

Well... this looks like a genuine kick the hornets nest occurrence. Given there is an opt out there doesn't seem a real need for the hornets to rise up and sting.

I don't mind the data collection. But its elevation into coding over other things does strike me a tangential and as such a bit disappointing.

And again, noting the concerns about obsolescence, please set aside the last downloadable version of OR for whatever OS is being culled, link it and label it as the last one for whatever is now out of future compatibility.

[R H Steele]

Genma Saotome, on 27 December 2023 - 12:34 PM, said:

And again, noting the concerns about obsolescence, please set aside the last downloadable version of OR for whatever OS is being culled, link it and label it as the last one for whatever is now out of future compatibility.

Yup....https://www.elvastower.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/I-Agree.gif ....as for privacy concerns...you folks are kiddin' yourselves...in this new world, that ship has sailed.



12-28-2023 Edit >>>

cjakeman, on 28 December 2023 - 11:56 AM, said:

...
This is telemetry done the way it should be: It's opt-in. The collection code is public and always available for scrutiny. It's intended for the benefit of our community's project. And it's being implemented by guys whom you have known for a long time.

My above observation about the privacy ship sailing....is a generalization, hyperbole...Chris makes the excellent point about who is implementing the data collection, it's opt-in nature, and the collection code being public and open to scrutiny. These are HUGE differences when compared to the collection schemes most of us encounter when dealing with the corps that provide "services".