[roeter]

Recently I have been working on updating my 'private' OR version to the latest unstable version, as this will allow me to submit the various changes I have made since my last commit.
For testing, I use a fictitious route, with a large variety of rolling stock. While testing, I ran into a very strange graphics issue.
One of the sets of rolling stock I am using is a former BR class 124, adapted for my fictitious route.
In the previous version, which more or less equals the official unstable OR version as back in February, the train looked like this.



But now, using the unstable version from about two weeks ago, it looks like this.



It looks a bit like a memory issue, but no issues or whatever are reported in the logfile :  OpenRailsLog_1.txt (30.45K)
Number of downloads: 133.

If that seems weird, the next picture is even more so. The train on the right is the player train, and this looks perfectly as it is supposed to be. The train on the left is an AI train. It is the same consist, same .s files, same textures and everything - but it certainly does not look the same. Again, no issues whatever are reported in the logfile :  OpenRailsLog_2.txt (32.45K)
Number of downloads: 160.



For those with knowledge of these things, here is the same picture but now also showing the debug hud.



Any ideas what is causing this? Clearly, with these issues I cannot move forward to this version.
By the way, this is not the only trainset which is affected in this way, there are some others allthough many trains are not affected.

Regards,
Rob Roeterdink

[superheatedsteam]

It could be an Alpha channel display issue. To confirm, remove the alpha channel from the ACE/DDS file and/or edit the .S file to not use a shader that supports Alpha and see if the problems can be replicated.

Cheers,

Marek.

[rickloader]

Hi Rob, on U2023.7.25-1938 I have some graphics issues, like steam loco wheels and rods missing. Also trains with gaps in the consist where models have not loaded.
Possibly low memory? I`m running a new install on a used laptop w10 i7 16gb gtx1650 timetable mode
Could you try ORNYMG 64bit? The graphics anomalies are not present for me on ORNYMG
Rick

[joe_star]

rickloader, on 31 July 2023 - 11:26 AM, said:

Hi Rob, on U2023.7.25-1938 I have some graphics issues, like steam loco wheels and rods missing. Also trains with gaps in the consist where models have not loaded.
Possibly low memory? I`m running a new install on a used laptop w10 i7 16gb gtx1650 timetable mode
Could you try ORNYMG 64bit? The graphics anomalies are not present for me on ORNYMG
Rick

Hello

Same here, had 2 observations on some steam locomotives

a. Driven wheels were absent, trailing wheels were present
b. If a locomotive is started from stationary by auto pilot, then the wheels don't rotate. Switching to player mode and back to auto pilot rectifies the issue

[cesarbl]

The problem with drive wheels is my fault, but it is unrelated to Rob's problem. I'll try to reproduce and fix it.

[roeter]

Look, ma! I can do it without wheels!



Above is another example of this disturbing graphics issue.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I fear that these cannot be the cause, as I'll explain.

Alpha textures issues.
It could certainly be alpha texture issues, but if so, these cannot be due to problems with shape or texture files. I have been using these trains, on this route, for at least ten years. No changes have been made to any shape or texture files for these trains for at least seven years. These files do not, overnight, on their own, develop alpha layer issues. If these now occur, that must be due to a change in the program.

Memory issues.
The previous version did not have any memory issues. No changes were made to route, trains, or environment, so if there are now any memory issues, that must be due to changes in the program.

Below are the debug HUD details for the two versions (top, new version; bottom, version based on unstable in February). These screenshots were taken at the same play time, same train, same location.




There are two significant differences.
First is the Kb/frame allocation, which, in the old version, is a factor 100 (!) higher as in the new version. I am not a graphics expert, so I do not know what this means, but it is strange and does point to the fact that, apparantly, changes were made to the graphics process.
The other difference is that in the new version, used memory is about 30% more (!) than in the old version. It would be very interesting to know what is causing this significant increase in memory usage.

In all, it is clear to me that the problem must somehow be caused by changes to the program, between February and now. All other elements are the same - same route, same timetable, same trains, same computer etc.
Somehow it is not surprising that I would be the first user to encounter any such problems if these are due to performance issues introduced by program changes. The route is a very large route, allthough it has little scenery. The timetable is very large indeed, with, for most part of the day, over 250 active AI trains at any one time.
But for me, this new version is no longer useable. What this means for the timetable update which I was about to commit, and for any future updates, is not yet clear.
I am very disappointed in the lack of interest of those developers who have been working on graphics changes between February and now, and also of the lack of interest by the OR management team. It seems the problem is considered to be a personal issue, due to my use or environment. It is not, the issue is clearly due to program changes. I just happen to be the first to run into these problems. If nothing is done, I am sure I will not be the last.

Regards,
Rob Roeterdink

[systema]

roeter, on 02 August 2023 - 12:27 AM, said:

Look, ma! I can do it without wheels!

Image1.jpg

Above is another example of this disturbing graphics issue.

Thanks for the suggestions, but I fear that these cannot be the cause, as I'll explain.

Alpha textures issues.
It could certainly be alpha texture issues, but if so, these cannot be due to problems with shape or texture files. I have been using these trains, on this route, for at least ten years. No changes have been made to any shape or texture files for these trains for at least seven years. These files do not, overnight, on their own, develop alpha layer issues. If these now occur, that must be due to a change in the program.

Memory issues.
The previous version did not have any memory issues. No changes were made to route, trains, or environment, so if there are now any memory issues, that must be due to changes in the program.

Below are the debug HUD details for the two versions (top, new version; bottom, version based on unstable in February). These screenshots were taken at the same play time, same train, same location.

Open Rails 2023-08-02 09-02-12.jpg
Open Rails 2023-08-02 09-45-59.jpg

There are two significant differences.
First is the Kb/frame allocation, which, in the old version, is a factor 100 (!) higher as in the new version. I am not a graphics expert, so I do not know what this means, but it is strange and does point to the fact that, apparantly, changes were made to the graphics process.
The other difference is that in the new version, used memory is about 30% more (!) than in the old version. It would be very interesting to know what is causing this significant increase in memory usage.

In all, it is clear to me that the problem must somehow be caused by changes to the program, between February and now. All other elements are the same - same route, same timetable, same trains, same computer etc.
Somehow it is not surprising that I would be the first user to encounter any such problems if these are due to performance issues introduced by program changes. The route is a very large route, allthough it has little scenery. The timetable is very large indeed, with, for most part of the day, over 250 active AI trains at any one time.
But for me, this new version is no longer useable. What this means for the timetable update which I was about to commit, and for any future updates, is not yet clear.
I am very disappointed in the lack of interest of those developers who have been working on graphics changes between February and now, and also of the lack of interest by the OR management team. It seems the problem is considered to be a personal issue, due to my use or environment. It is not, the issue is clearly due to program changes. I just happen to be the first to run into these problems. If nothing is done, I am sure I will not be the last.

Regards,
Rob Roeterdink

I agree. This is not at all good. I have been noticing a degradation of train graphics over the last several months. All versions of OR appear to have the problem. Latest versions showing no steam loco drive wheels for most locos. I have also been having intermittent missing items of stock even though the train runs fine.

If this problem is not fixed no one will be interested in running OR. Years of effort will have been a waist of time.

Mick Clarke
MEC

[joe_star]

systema, on 02 August 2023 - 01:55 AM, said:

I agree. This is not at all good. I have been noticing a degradation of train graphics over the last several months. All versions of OR appear to have the problem. Latest versions showing no steam loco drive wheels for most locos. I have also been having intermittent missing items of stock even though the train runs fine.

If this problem is not fixed no one will be interested in running OR. Years of effort will have been a waist of time.

Mick Clarke
MEC

I'm afraid there's just too much to do and too little contributors to the development. Additionally, considering that all the developers are doing this on their own time, it's hardly unexpected that they would prioritize features they are interested in rather than bug fixing.

I hope to acquaint myself enough with programing and the code to effectively contribute someday. I've already got the source code on hand in visual studio and even made a branch to implement some minor changes of my own.

[cjakeman]

roeter, on 02 August 2023 - 12:27 AM, said:

I am very disappointed in the lack of interest of those developers who have been working on graphics changes between February and now, and also of the lack of interest by the OR management team.

That's a little unfair, Rob.
The ORMT has sessions every 3 weeks or so and everyone is invited to raise concerns but this is the first I've heard of it.

Clearly it's a serious issue and I'm sure James Ross will want to take a close look at it. Do we have all the details necessary?

[cesarbl]

I'm so sorry for the wheel problem. It didn't appear in any of the steam locomotives that I tested, and I couldn't notice it when I introduced a new feature. If anyone is willing to help me, I will try to solve it. I would need a locomotive showing no drive wheels for testing.

Unfortunately, due to conflicts with other PRs, the changes were in the Unstable release only for a week, and the bug stayed unnoticed, and entered the Testing version.

I read in the past days some comments which weren't very nice towards developers, particularly for those of us who do physics. I'm a Physicist, and I'm not a competent developer in other areas, so if physics improvements are constantly disregarded, it's better to not introduce anything new. No improvements means no new bugs!

I always spend some time ensuring that my changes don't have a big impact, but sometimes I fail to do so. I apologize for that. I really appreciate when people report bugs in the forums, because I cannot test a feature in all existing rolling stock. However, I feel sad if instead of just reporting it, people write rage messages saying that we don't care about bugs.

[systema]

I think there may also be a new problem with waiting points and or reverse points. I got a freeze and crash while testing an activity.

Log attached.  OpenRailsLogfreeze.txt (83.67K)
Number of downloads: 164

Mick Clarke
MEC

[Eldorado.Railroad]

1. Have you rebooted your O/S (cold)? Win10, forced update break things?

2. Failing hardware, RAM, GPU/RAM?

3. To narrow down what caused this you might have to do a bit of a binary search through the various testing releases, to see where it fails.

4. I, have looked at your log file, there is a lot of stuff being loaded at start up. Any bug(s) in the timetable data?

5. I keep my viewing distance way down, ViewingDistance, to about 2500 meters, this might help.

6. Things should not be broken like this, without an explanation. Sometimes we have to dig deeper to find what developer pulled what source and mangled things. That kind of inquisition could/may get sticky. Be prepared for some friction.

7. Maybe the answer is simple. Too many render primitives, etc? Some OR registry setting got flipped?

8. It is too bad that "upgrades" break things, and keep on breaking things. I do not like that. Often I just stick with some version and do my testing/experiments from there. But you have been with this project for many years, so I think you would know that.

Steve

[cjakeman]

cesarbl, on 02 August 2023 - 10:35 AM, said:

I always spend some time ensuring that my changes don't have a big impact, but sometimes I fail to do so. I apologize for that. I really appreciate when people report bugs in the forums, because I cannot test a feature in all existing rolling stock.

You're right, Cesar. Content is outside our control, so not everything can be tested before it's published. Inevitably our Open Rails project relies on prompt and specific feedback from our users.

cesarbl, on 02 August 2023 - 10:35 AM, said:

However, I feel sad if instead of just reporting it, people write rage messages saying that we don't care about bugs.

Please don't stop contributing improvements; our project is benefiting from your expertise.

[cjakeman]

Eldorado.Railroad, on 02 August 2023 - 02:29 PM, said:

3. To narrow down what caused this you might have to do a bit of a binary search through the various testing releases, to see where it fails.

Good advice, Steve, but we don't keep all the Testing Versions (although this is changing). However we do keep all the Unstable Versions, so the first step would be to find the last Unstable Version which doesn't have the problem and the first one that does.

If you can do that, Rob, then we can work through the PRs to see which one made the difference.

[Csantucci]

systema, on 02 August 2023 - 01:09 PM, said:

I think there may also be a new problem with waiting points and or reverse points. I got a freeze and crash while testing an activity.

Log attached. OpenRailsLogfreeze.txt

Mick Clarke
MEC

The thread hang doesn't seem to be related to waiting points and reverse points. Looking at the log there are two hypotheses:
1) an unwanted loop in handling an animation of a steam locomotive
2) simply a temporary overload of the CPU.