[cr-stagg]

Lamplighter, on 27 July 2022 - 09:49 PM, said:

You can see the OR version in the HUD view on the attached screenshot (top left). Consist editor is TSRE v0.7.012.
The locomotive you used is diesel-electric. There are no problems with diesel-electric traction, steam and electric locomotives or cars.
The problem described above concerns the newly tested diesel-mechanical transmission of traction power. This feature is currently available in the test and unstable version of OR.

So why was the CON file posted instead of the ENG file when the only difference between Diesel Elec and diesel Mech is in the ENG file?

[Lamplighter]

By posting the .con file I wanted to show that OR is loading it differently than defined.
And that's only if the same car with a diesel-mechanical power transmission (a new definition of a mechanical transmission) is used as the other.
Just create another .eng file with a different car name and OR will stop hiding it.
The far bigger problem is that this second car in the lineup doesn't contribute to the overall performance. The engine spins at maximum speed, but the power is zero - it is not transferred to the trackrail.

This thread is locomotives with a new definition of diesel-mechanical power transmission. That's why I'm writing about the problems here because I'm using a .eng file with this new definition.

[darwins]

Peter has now completed the code for the "Type C" manual gearbox.

An example unit can be downloaded from the CTN website:

https://www.coalston...echanic_dmu(101)_v1.exe

With the Type C gearbox, the throttle should be closed and the rpm allowed to drop before changing gears.

In this model ORTSReverseGearboxIndication ( 1 ) has been used to place the gears in the order N-4-3-2-1 as on the prototype.

 ORTSDieselTransmissionType ( Mechanic )

 ORTSGearBoxType ( C )
 ORTSMainClutchType ( Fluid )
 ORTSDieselEngineGovernorRpM ( 2000 )
 ORTSGearBoxFreeWheel ( 1 )
 ORTSReverseGearboxIndication ( 1 )

 GearBoxOperation( Manual )
 GearBoxNumberOfGears( 4 )
 GearBoxMaxSpeedForGears( 65.5mph 41mph 27mph 15.3mph )
 ORTSGearBoxTractiveForceatSpeed( 1610lbf 2420lbf 3710lbf 6570lbf )

Driving instructions:

Select forward direction.

Select first gear ( with the keyboard press E four times ).

Release the brake.

Open the throttle.

When rpm reaches the "Change Up" mark on the rpm gauge close the throttle and wait approx 2 seconds.

Select second gear ( with the keyboard press SHIFT + E together )

Open the throttle again and so on...

If due to climbing a gradient the engine rpm decreases until it reaches the "Change Down" mark on the rpm gauge then close the throttle, pause about 2 seconds, change to the next lowest gear and open the throttle again.

When coasting you should always use gear 4. (Not so important in OR, but it prevents damage to gears on the real thing.)

When stopping leave in gear 4 until just before the train comes to a halt and then change to neutral.


There is a driver training film here https://youtu.be/bS5xiM0LYtA

Comments and feedback awaited.

[Laci1959]

Hello.

I had two questions.
1. Does it also accept the ORTSMainClutchType ( Friction ) setting?
2. What if the gears are in the order N-E-1-2-3-4? Where E = Preparation. In this situation, it is possible to generate air at high rpm to operate the brake and the gearbox and clutch. This was a common feature of GANZ vehicles.
3. Is the ORTSDieselEngines block still not supported? I have already given up on the torque curve.
Will there be a sequel?

Sincerely, Laci 1959

[darwins]

Laci1959, on 23 September 2022 - 12:12 AM, said:

Hello.

I had two questions.
1. Does it also accept the ORTSMainClutchType ( Friction ) setting?

Yes. Any clutch type Friction or Fluid or Scoop can be used with any Gearbox Type A, B or C.

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2. What if the gears are in the order N-E-1-2-3-4? Where E = Preparation. In this situation, it is possible to generate air at high rpm to operate the brake and the gearbox and clutch. This was a common feature of GANZ vehicles.

At the moment either N-1-2-3-4 or N-4-3-2-1 are possible.
There is not an option at the moment to add "E" for preparation.
I can't promise this will be added, but even to consider it more information would be needed.
What are the differences in operation between N and E?

( a ) Can the throttle not be opened when these trains are in N?

( b ) Is the compressor not driven when these trains are in N?

( c ) Does the reverser need to be in Forward or Reverse for "E" to function?

It sounds a bit like "Engine Only" on diesel electric locos - where you often have - Reverse = Neutral = Engine Only = Forward.

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3. Is the ORTSDieselEngines block still not supported? I have already given up on the torque curve.

ORTSDieselEngines blocks are now supported for one or two engines on one or more locomotives or power cars in any consist for manual gearboxes of Type A, Type B or Type C. Download these units from the CTN site and have a look at how the diesel engine blocks are used in the "Advanced" configuration eng files.

Quote

Will there be a sequel?

This depends on Peter's willingness to write some more code!!

[Weter]

There were variants (often for hydro-mechanical transmissions, though), when shifting of gears was performed automatically, taking in account current wheel speed, compared to present diesel's rpm (I.e. in case of "extra" power presence for notching-up, or deficite for notching-down), while driver defined manually one of two modes, before moving the vehicle: either Switching or Mainline (maneuver/transportation).
Obviously, there was more possibility to implement automatic gear shifting, we're hydro-transformers (in english its likely torque converter) were present. However, hydraulic-actuated friction clutches, attached to every gear can do that as well.

[Laci1959]

Hello.

First of all, the operation of GANZ towing vehicles is almost identical to the operation of road vehicles (traditional manual transmission and clutch pedal). The gear lever is not a real gear lever, but a Control Switch according to the contemporary definition. Closes and breaks electrical contacts for electropneumatic actuation. There is a clutch cylinder and air cylinders for each stage. The Control Switch is also a kind of starting key. It prevents the vehicle from starting from a standstill.
The English sign for "E" >> Előkészítés can be "P" >> Preparation. In the following, I will mark it with the letter P.

a. In the case of motor vehicles, the throttle valve can be moved freely in the preparation position. There is no connection.
Note: For locomotives, the GANZ factory produced preparatory stages P1 - P3. These included specific speeds in ascending order.

b. In "N" position, the engine does NOT drive anything, because the ignition key, i.e. the Control Switch, is not inside. If there is no air, the electropneumatics do not work and the vehicle is immovable.
In the "P" position, it is connected to the auxiliary engine. This is the compressor, the direct current dynamo, a possible air conditioner (ventilator).

c. In the "P" position, the direction switch can be moved freely. It is usually moved to the appropriate position in this position, or more precisely in the next Zero position. But that's just a little point of interest. The point is the first sentence.

It's okay if the transmission doesn't have a preparatory position. I don't even know why I mentioned it. Maybe the torque converter that can be switched in the stationary position would be more necessary. If there are two speeds, with a torque curve.

Many thanks to Peter for his work so far.

Sincerely, Laci1959

[Weter]

That is indirect gear switching.

[darwins]

Weter, on 23 September 2022 - 10:51 PM, said:

There were variants (often for hydro-mechanical transmissions, though), when shifting of gears was performed automatically, taking in account current wheel speed, compared to present diesel's rpm (I.e. in case of "extra" power presence for notching-up, or deficit for notching-down). Obviously, there was more possibility to implement automatic gear shifting, we're hydro-transformers were present. However, hydraulic-actuated friction clutches, attached to every gear can do that as well

Hopefully it will not be too difficult for Peter to get something like that working for an automatic mechanical gearbox of either Type A or Type B, similar to the way automatic transmission worked in MSTS.

There are two variations possible here:

If the transmission does not have a freewheel, then the driver must be able to select "Neutral" when the train is moving, in order to be able to coast with the engines at idle.
These trains need a gear selector that has "Neutral" or "Drive".

If there is a freewheel included in the transmission then no gear selector is needed as the driver can coast with the throttle closed at any time.

Some early hydro-mechanical transmissions had a driver controlled gear change from torque convertor transmission to mechanical gears - a gear selector that says "Neutral" / "Convertor" / "Direct"

Some hydro-mechanical transmissions like automatic transmissions on cars or trucks have "lock up" or "kick down" controls that can keep the convertor engaged until a higher than normal speed to give better acceleration. Some also have a throttle position like the "E" or "P" described above for filling the convertor.

Quote

while driver defined manually one of two modes, before moving the vehicle: either Switching or Mainline (maneuver/transportation).

This was very common on diesel locos in Germany, and was also used on some French locomotives. At the moment we would have to have two different eng files in OR, one for the slow (or shunting) gear ratio and one for the fast (or main line) gear ratio.

I have already used the thread on voltage selectors, to suggest that other selectors such as final drive gear ratio selector or brake selector could be included.
http://www.elvastowe...post__p__278361

Laci1959, on 23 September 2022 - 11:09 PM, said:

Hello.

First of all, the operation of GANZ towing vehicles is almost identical to the operation of road vehicles (traditional manual transmission and clutch pedal). The gear lever is not a real gear lever, but a Control Switch according to the contemporary definition. Closes and breaks electrical contacts for electropneumatic actuation. There is a clutch cylinder and air cylinders for each stage. The Control Switch is also a kind of starting key. It prevents the vehicle from starting from a standstill.
The English sign for "E" >> Elokészítés can be "P" >> Preparation. In the following, I will mark it with the letter P.

a. In the case of motor vehicles, the throttle valve can be moved freely in the preparation position. There is no connection.

b. In "N" position, the engine does NOT drive anything, because the ignition key, i.e. the Control Switch, is not inside. If there is no air, the electropneumatics do not work and the vehicle is immovable.
In the "P" position, it is connected to the auxiliary engine. This is the compressor, the direct current dynamo, a possible air conditioner (ventilator).

c. In the "P" position, the direction switch can be moved freely. It is usually moved to the appropriate position in this position, or more precisely in the next Zero position. But that's just a little point of interest. The point is the first sentence.

Sincerely, Laci1959

It is interesting to learn about different systems.


UK (if engine is already running)

Insert Master Key - this allows operation of gear selector and throttle

Open throttle to increase engine speed to run compressor


Hungary (if engine is already running)

Insert Master Key - this allows operation of gear selector and throttle

Use gear selector to select P (E)

Open throttle to increase engine speed to run compressor etc.

Does the driver leave the gear selector in P rather than N during station stops? Will they sometimes rev the engine when standing to charge the main reservoir?

Quote

Note: For locomotives, the GANZ factory produced preparatory stages P1 - P3. These included specific speeds in ascending order.

Was this on the gear selector or on the throttle?

I am thinking that throttle settings could include a governor to control rpm. Some German diesel hydraulic locos have a convertor filling notch before Notch 1.


Another variation on the Budd RDC railcars in USA and their Australian derivatives. (hydro-mechanical)

The throttle has positions: Neutral Idle / Tranmission Idle / 1 / 2 / 3

Driver chooses direction of travel and then selects "Transmission Idle" which engange the transmission.

Then release the brake and choose 1, 2 or 3. (For fuel economy Australian drivers are told to use Notch 1 only as far as possible!)

To coast the throttle should be moved to "Transmission Idle"

If "Neutral Idle" is accidentally used when the train is moving it must be brought to a complete stand before selecting "Transmission Idle" again to prevent damage.

[Laci1959]

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Does the driver leave the gear selector in P rather than N during station stops? Will they sometimes rev the engine when standing to charge the main reservoir?

Sometimes not even in position P. Between position P and position 1 there was a position 0. When stopping for a short time, he only put the lever in the 0 position. Using a car analogy, he pressed the clutch and put the transmission in neutral. His legs didn't get tired because the pneumatics did it.
The P position was engaged throughout, except for the N position. So the compressor could start whenever it was needed. It was not necessary to switch to position P.

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Was this on the gear selector or on the throttle?
I am thinking that throttle settings could include a governor to control rpm. Some German diesel hydraulic locos have a convertor filling notch before Notch 1.

They were on the throttle before the first Noch. It was there on all three diesel locomotive types. The diesel mechanical reversing locomotive had no gearbox. My diesel hydraulic only had a two-stage torque converter, which we have already discussed several times.