[Weter]

@Chris
There are kilovoltmeters, showing zero, and(in some cases) lamps, which lit in absence of main circuit voltage.
This indicate either, lowered state of pantographs, absence/break of power in katenary, or undervoltage.
This is a "message" however, You are right: all this is not obvious for amateur - there must be a message.
@Darwin
You are right too. And we just forgot this case, thank You for hint.

[roeter]

The issues of 'hot' or 'cold' start, for all types of engines, should, in my view, be seen in a much wider concept.
It very much depends on the 'history' of the train which the user is starting. I suppose this is not so much the case in activity or explorer mode, but very much so in timetable mode.

In timetable mode, a train started by the user can, broadly speaking, have any of the following 'history':

• First action of the day for that particular trainset or engine.
  
• Action after a long spell of inaction (e.g. train in pool or siding).
  
• Action after a short spell of inaction, with train stored in platform or through yard track.
  
• Taking over a train which just arrived in station or yard.
  
• Taking over a train detached from another train.

For type 1, cold or hot start could indeed be an option.
For type 2, cold or hot start could be an option for electric or diesel, but improbable for steam.
For type 3, hot start is the most likely, but, depending on the type of train, cold start could be possible for electric or diesel.
For type 4 and 5, cold start is nonsense.

For type 4, for instance, having to insert the masterkey might be realistic (as each driver has his own key), but having to pump air to raise the pantograph on a train which just arrived is silly. As far as I know, the present logic does not even allow for requiring a masterkey but having the engine ready to run in all other aspects.

At present, there are no commands for timetables to detail if a train is to start hot or cold, or how it should be disposed. As far as I know, there are also no program facilities to start AI trains hot or cold, or to dispose of AI trains hot or cold. Neither commands nor facilities are even anywhere on the (Trello) cards.

With all this in mind, I would suggest that these options are disabled for timetable mode, or if that is seen as a step too far, should at least be set to 'hot' start by default.

Regards,
Rob Roeterdink

[rickloader]

I hate too disagree Rob, but in my view it would be undesirable to have a default hot start for timetable mode.
If you run a steam loco in Manual Firing from hot start it will be nearly impossible to control the boiler. It will certainly let off steam, then the boiler pressure will collapse, leaving the loco struggling to haul the train. if the player tries to boost boiler output he will overcompensate leading to more blowing off and another fall in pressure. This unstable cycle will continue
If you start a train with cold start in timetable mode you will be far short of max power, but you will be able to "nurse" the loco while gradually working to full output. You will have a chance to stabilise the fire output and steam demand avoiding the unstable condition.
In my view the OR steam model for manual firing is flawed, because this instability of boiler pressure makes it very hard to reach equilibrium. A group of us did look at the boiler control issue but unfortunately could not reach consensus.
To be clear I`m not talking about manual shovel firing V.s automatic stoker. I mean the CTRL + F
I don`t understand Rob`s "history" above post . Are we talking about the player or the loco first action ? For a steam loco, the only time a loco will be in hot start condition is when the player joins the train part way through the run, or when the same loco is $formed from another train timetable column.
Sorry to go on at length, but to simplify the menu by removing the hot/cold option would spoil the game for no gain. Rather , I would like to see an extra option to specify the starting condition of a steam loco. Rob has just made a good case for this! Even better if this were specified from within the timetable.
Rick

[Laci1959]

Quote

if the player tries to boost boiler output he will overcompensate leading to more blowing off and another fall in pressure. This unstable cycle will continue

Hello.

If OR works like this, it's not very good. The nominal pressure (for example 14bar) opens at +0.5 bar (14.5bar) and closes immediately if the pressure drops to this value. Of course, the pressure can go up to 16-17 bars due to the fire, but this is rare. There is a working U.S.A.T.C. S160 ( Truman ) locomotive. I asked one of my colleagues about it.

In a longer position, they do not fire, they only clean the fire (the embers are pulled aside, then the slag is pushed off the grate into the ash box), and then the remaining embers are spread with a thin layer of charcoal and allowed to glow.

Sincerely, Laci 1959

PS. The warming of the Truman is 3-4 hours in summer and 9-10 hours in winter if it is very cold.

[Laci1959]

 Weter, on 08 February 2022 - 09:32 AM, said:

I've heared too, that often, they let the fire be 27/7 except boiler revisions, washing and repairs.

Due to thermal expansion in steel boilers.

[cjakeman]

 cjakeman, on 07 February 2022 - 07:00 AM, said:

Whatever happens, we ought to improve the entry in the Manual as it's not very clear at the moment. I'll try to come up with some better words for discussion.

CURRENT
This option allows starting the game with the boiler water temperature already at a value that allows running the locomotive. If the option is not selected, you will have to wait until the water temperature reaches a high enough value.

PROPOSED
With this option selected, the temperature and pressure of steam in the boiler is ready to pull the train.
If not, the boiler pressure will be at 2/3 of maximum, which can make driving difficult.
If your schedule gives you time to raise the pressure close to maximum, then switch from AI Firing to Manual Firing (Ctrl+F) and increase the Blower (N) to 100% to raise a draught. Replenish the coal using R and Shift+R to keep the fire mass close to 100%.
Full pressure may be reached in 5 minutes or so.

The default setting is checked.


Is this a fair replacement?

[darwins]

The fault in the OR model is not with the opening and closing of the safety valves, which operate correctly for "pop" safety valves. (There is as yet no model of older spring loaded safety valves such as the Salter and Ramsbottom valves.) The problem is one of boiler and fire behaviour. Certainly in earlier versions of OR then there was something built in that caused the boiler pressure to fall even after the safety valves had closed. The converse of this, is with AI firing the pressure simply stops going up even when more heat energy is still being added to the boiler.

With regards to the menu and making best use of what we have now, I would generally agree with Rick, cold start is preferable in most cases, particularly when using manual firing. The exception to this may not be possible in timetable mode, but is the start of some activities - that is when a moving train enters the timetable or activity. (Even then the hot start option is not a stable state as you might expect for a loco that had run a good distance in service, and some cycling of the boiler and fire will take place until it settles down.)

[Weter]

Quote

Is this a fair replacement?

I think, yes.

[steamer_ctn]

 cjakeman, on 08 February 2022 - 11:07 AM, said:

Is this a fair replacement?

i) It would be very unusual that a "cold" steam locomotive would be added to an "in service" train. Typically either the crew or a depot worker would prepare the engine, and have it up to steam before the engine was due to "whistle" out of the depot. So time was allowed for locomotive preparation in the timetable.

ii) The AI fireman will increase the steam pressure on a "cold" locomotive if the train is driven at light steaming rates (ie steam usage is well below steam production rate).

So the "cold" feature is not a completely off condition, a no fire condition would be a completely off condition, however it could take anything up to 2 hours to bring a locomotive up to steam (so probably not a scenario that most users would like to sit and watch).

The main reason that the feature was added was to allow some activities to start in the locomotive depot with the crew signing on to their locomotive as it nears the end of its preparation for service. The locomotive could be moved to the head of a new service about to commence its journey, and the crew would have the challenge of building up steam before the departure of the service (time would need to be allowed for this in the activity). It would be unusual to couple a "cold" locomotive to a "through service" to replace the current locomotive. Typically the locomotive would be up to steam. EDIT: A "cold" locomotive could be used as a yard shunter, as the steaming duty should not be too onerous.

As suggested the new service scenario might be possible in AI mode, but it was more contemplated that it would be more applicable to Manual Firing scenario.

So I agree that it is set to hot by default (as is the current default), but the user can opt for a cold start as long as they know the consequences.

[cjakeman]

 cjakeman, on 16 January 2022 - 08:47 AM, said:

2:. Remove redundant options from code and Manual
We have consensus on the following options, which will be removed:

• 02a: Options > Audio > MSTS Bin compatible sound
• 02b: Options > Video > Fast full-screen alt-tab
• 02c: Options > Video > % cab 2D stretch
• 02d: Options > Curve dependent resistance
• 02e: Options > Tunnel dependent resistance
• 02f: Options > Wind dependent resistance
• 02g: Options > Experimental > Extend object maximum viewing distance to horizon
• 02h: Options > Experimental > ECTS circular speed gauge
• 02i: Options > Experimental > Load day/night textures only when needed
• 02j: Options > General > Map window
• 02k: Options > Simulation > Override non-electrified route line-voltage
• 02l: Options > General > Enable web server
• 02m: Menu > Debrief evaluation

I had some trouble implementing all these at once, so I've split them into individual Pull Requests instead.

02a to 02h: have been in the Unstable Version for 6 days now with no adverse comments. Please would a developer review them and approved them? They probably are the cause of build conflicts for 02i - 02l which therefore aren't included in the Unstable Version yet.

02m: Menu > Debrief evaluation is going to require a little more work as author mbm_OR (Mauricio) wants to have a robust mechanism for removing old evaluations. If you can't turn off evaluations, then we want them to be well-behaved.

Please would a developer review and, I hope, approve 02a to 02h? Thanks.