[steamer_ctn]

Hi Allen,

It is certainly an impressive locomotive.

B & O GUY, on 14 February 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

I just assumed that there was no automatic fireman working in OR and for this reason the key punching was thought to be necessary. OR pops up with a message that says something like this. "Your fireman needs to work the injectors before you run out of water". Or "Your fireman needs to shovel a little more coal. Your fire mass is getting low". That's not exactly what was coming up in the messages as I didn't write them down at the time. But wouldn't you assume that the automatic fireman wasn't working when seeing this.

The fireman messages come up in the AI mode as well, because the driver may need to reduce the throttle to reduce the burn rate, and ease the load on the fireman. This message is generally for when a human fireman is used, as they typically can only shovel coal at about about 3,000+ lb/h. The message should not appear when an automatic stoker is in use (to be fixed). The ENG files appear to allow for the stoker through the larger fuel rate. The fire mass tended to stabilise for me after a while.

The other interesting thing is that the consist files provide a "double-headed" locomotive in the one unit. It appears that the consist file has two equivalent ENG files, which gives this effect in OR. I suspect that this might be a MSTSBin feature for front and rear cabs, etc, but I am not certain.

The problem that you have identified is that the cylinder steam usage is up around the 130,000+ mark (depending upon the speed), and this is certainly in excess of the injector sizes available in OR currently. I will need to look at the steam usage figure, and confirm whether it is correct. If it is correct, then larger injectors would be required, otherwise it is a calculation issue.

Do you have information on the prototype locomotive in regards to the size and number of injectors fitted? A test report?

Thanks

Peter

[copperpen]

steamer_ctn, on 14 February 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

The other interesting thing is that the consist files provide a "double-headed" locomotive in the one unit. It appears that the consist file has two equivalent ENG files, which gives this effect in OR. I suspect that this might be a MSTSBin feature for front and rear cabs, etc, but I am not certain.

Peter

The "double-headed" locomotive the result you get if an articulated is modelled in two pieces, the method adopted for MSTS because of the size and complexity of such engines. There are some smaller ones that have been modelled as one complete engine, but until a way is found to combine the two sets of data into one, the "double-headed effect will remain. The D type Shay also acts like a double-headed" engine.


BTW, the main "bug" is in the eng file with the injector sizes. This line is written as InjectorSizes ( 10 10 ) so OR allocates the lowest refill rate. If this line is changed to InjectorSizes ( 13mm 13mm ) you get the highest rate of refill. Note the mm part must be present to enable this.

[B & O GUY]

Quote

BTW, the main "bug" is in the eng file with the injector sizes. This line is written as InjectorSizes ( 10 10 ) so OR allocates the lowest refill rate. If this line is changed to InjectorSizes ( 13mm 13mm ) you get the highest rate of refill. Note the mm part must be present to enable this.

I tried the changing of the injector settings from 10-10mm to 13-13mm on both the front and rear engines of the #260 set last night. This only changes the water level marginally and they still lose water at a greater rate than can be recovered. By using 39% of the reverser and 60% of the throttle on an uphill grade the maximum speed attained was 9.8 mph and the water can be maintained at between 5.9 and 6.2 inches of the water glass. Anything more than this and the water glass level will drop very rapidly.

Is the injector used to supply all the water to the boiler? Is there a feedwater pump employed at all? Injectors are supplemental water feed devices on most all later day steam locomotives. I haven't seen anything in the engine file that pertains to a feedwater pump or feedwater heater pump being used at all. This locomotive of Derek's has a very large boiler and a feedwater pump would almost certainly have been part of it's design with injector's being used as a supplemental or secondary water supply.

My opinion is just that and may be refuted here. That's okay. :sign_thanks:

Thanks for your help folks.

Allen

[copperpen]

Allen

Just to be sure, is the injector size data now 13mm 13mm and not just 13 13. That should be getting you 5000-ish gallons per hour per injector which should then let you run the cylinder steam usage up to 100,000lb/hr Feedwater pump is not yet modelled, neither is mechanical stoker yet, although the Auto fireman does behave like one.

Back to these big 2-8-8-2s. Although OR steam code will work with pure MSTS eng file data it will never be accurate. The steam generation rate of these with the MSTS data is over 161000 lb/hr and that is where most of your water is going. Plugging in the ORTS data lines gives a much different picture with steam generation down to 89000-ish.

Drop these into the engine section of the eng files
ORTSEvaporationArea ( 6880ft^2 )
ORTSBoilerEvaporationRate ( 13 )
ORTSGrateArea ( 145ft^2 )
ORTSFuelCalorific ( 14526btu/lb )
ORTSBurnRateMultiplier ( 1 )
ORTSSuperHeatArea ( 2150ft^2 )
ORTSCylinderEfficiencyRate ( 1 )

Using these lines in the 252 front eng file I have driven for 20 minutes with cylinder usage at about 72000lb/hr, the glass is down to 5.3 and I expect it to stabilise between 5 and 4 inches. I am only running light engine with 40% forward and 20 to 25% throttle depending on grade. Running with a normal train should also produce these types of figures, keeping in mind that you should not allow usage to exceed production of steam. With a possible maximum of 10,000 gallons per hour through the injectors the tender should run out before the gauge glass empties.

[B & O GUY]

Quote

Allen

Just to be sure, is the injector size data now 13mm 13mm and not just 13 13. That should be getting you 5000-ish gallons per hour per injector which should then let you run the cylinder steam usage up to 100,000lb/hr Feedwater pump is not yet modelled, neither is mechanical stoker yet, although the Auto fireman does behave like one.

Back to these big 2-8-8-2s. Although OR steam code will work with pure MSTS eng file data it will never be accurate. The steam generation rate of these with the MSTS data is over 161000 lb/hr and that is where most of your water is going. Plugging in the ORTS data lines gives a much different picture with steam generation down to 89000-ish.

Drop these into the engine section of the eng files
ORTSEvaporationArea ( 6880ft^2 )
ORTSBoilerEvaporationRate ( 13 )
ORTSGrateArea ( 145ft^2 )
ORTSFuelCalorific ( 14526btu/lb )
ORTSBurnRateMultiplier ( 1 )
ORTSSuperHeatArea ( 2150ft^2 )
ORTSCylinderEfficiencyRate ( 1 )

Using these lines in the 252 front eng file I have driven for 20 minutes with cylinder usage at about 72000lb/hr, the glass is down to 5.3 and I expect it to stabilise between 5 and 4 inches. I am only running light engine with 40% forward and 20 to 25% throttle depending on grade. Running with a normal train should also produce these types of figures, keeping in mind that you should not allow usage to exceed production of steam. With a possible maximum of 10,000 gallons per hour through the injectors the tender should run out before the gauge glass empties.

Ah! Success!

And yes! It was 10 10 changed to 13 13 and is now 13mm 13mm. Thanks for straightening that out.

Thanks you for your other suggestions and changes. They worked quite well and the water gauge never fell below 5.0 inches. It is a little bit alarming to see 8.0 inches at the start and watch it fall to 5.0 inches within the first 7 miles. The average over the rest of the trip to Keddie was about 5.8 with judicious throttle and forwarder changes. She doesn't like to be pushed and seems to be happy in the 23 to 27 mph range. At anything over this the water glass level drops very quickly. And I say this is true for a slightly to medium ascending grade. Not flat or decending. Heven't tried that yet as it seems to be all ascending from Orroville to Keddie on the Feather River Route.

There are also no water tanks or plugs over that section and none close to the tracks with the exception of one to facilitate filling the tender so the trip needs to be fairly quick with no long distance slogging up grades at 7 mph as I did on the first trip. It also seems unlikely that these locomotives could make the entire 70+ miles between those two points without stopping off for a sip of water once or twice along the way. Although this route is beautiful and has gorgeous scenery it isn't steam locomotive friendly. Some of the features are there but not accessible in all locations. The route needs to be degraded to an earlier time for steam operation. Some day when I learn to use the Route Editor I'll have to try that. Until then it's use as is and love every mile of it. No real complaints about this route.

Thanks again Copperpen, Peter and everyone else in this thread for your help. It is appreciated. You don't know (or maybe you do) how disappointing it is to spend hour after hour traversing a route only to have your favorite steed fail and you don't arrive at the planned destination. Unfortunately in this simulator you can't make a call and have a pusher come out and help you up a hill or save you when your steed does fail. I did in this case put out a call and got some great help here at ET to make the second trip a success. :)

Allen

[farrmp]

To Allen and others running Steam on modern routes without Water, these CLEVER OR Developers
have included an UNDOCUMENTED feature. Push the T key and if no Water or Fuel is available nearby,
the message is displayed and the Tender MAGICALLY refills to 100%. I love Marc's 3rd. Sub, and would be
devastated if I couldn't run Derek's (midneguy) fine Locomotives on this route.

Paul

[B & O GUY]

Quote

Posted Today, 03:09 PM

To Allen and others running Steam on modern routes without Water, these CLEVER OR Developers
have included an UNDOCUMENTED feature. Push the T key and if no Water or Fuel is available nearby,
the message is displayed and the Tender MAGICALLY refills to 100%. I love Marc's 3rd. Sub, and would be
devastated if I couldn't run Derek's (midneguy) fine Locomotives on this route.

Paul

Now if it would just magically keep the boiler full of water. That would be perfect. :lol2:

For steam operation the WP route needs to have some coal and water towers. One of the water tanks I saw on the second trip up from Oroville was not a locomotive refill tank but a supply tank for a station and a few houses in the area. It had no spout and was a little on the smallish side.

I would imagine there are a few here at ET have already modified their WP Feather River Routes to the steam era. Trouble is they don't advertise it.

Allen

[cjakeman]

farrmp, on 17 February 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

To Allen and others running Steam on modern routes without Water, these CLEVER OR Developers
have included an UNDOCUMENTED feature.

Yes, this feature is deliberate and, though unrealistic, it caters for routes which aren't equipped with water and coal supplies.