[Genma Saotome]

 eolesen, on 25 November 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

All that you've mentioned (re-aligning, adjustments to elevation, shifting of coordinates) can be accomplished now without the RE. All you need to do is go into the World files and tweak the objects.

Granted, knowing which object is which is a problem, but it's certainly doable by hand. That's how I spend my half my building time, and I know of at least one other forum user here who also probably spends more time manipulating the raw World files than they do making adjustments in the RE.

For many years now I've spent a large percent, perhaps half or more, of my world editing time hand editing the .w files. It would be better if the kind of work I do there would be done via a gui editor instead:

• change the file name
  
• rotate to a specific orientation
  
• rotate to match another object
  
• change pitch to match another object
  
• linear copy
  
• move an object a specific distance in a specific direction
  
• snap-to align (match object B's position and orientation to object A).

All but the first are 3d CAD functions and that should not be a surprise because world editing is simply a form of 3d CAD: You import sets of vertices (with their textures), and place them at some XYZ location in 3d space. You press the Y Key to snap a collection to another (terrain). You use the GUI to move a collection around and perhaps rotate it. You change the position of vertexes and replace textures (terrain editing). It's ALL CAD... and FWIW it should NOT be using cute, tinkertoy, circus colored visual aids.

What is different than what many model builders recognize as 3d CAD is there is no need for a 3 or 4 picture multiple orientation views. World editing is a whole lot like using Sketchup: you roll your camera around and do stuff.

Anyway... you guys want a good world editor (basic or robust) sooner, rather than later... one that's not just a clone of RE? Find an experienced route builder who will donate their coding skills to build one.

[Lindsayts]

 Genma Saotome, on 25 November 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Anyway... you guys want a good world editor (basic or robust) sooner, rather than later... one that's not just a clone of RE? Find an experienced route builder who will donate their coding skills to build one.

A minor point first I have also spent a good bit of time in the world files correcting items, any way..................

The point I am trying to make in this thread is that its not about what I or anyone else wants, its what is the best for OR's future. Saying the team does not have the skills solves nothing, as has already been mentioned a good portion is simply a 3 D cad editor. The track laying and its ascociated tools (interactives, sounds, signals etc) being the more challenging items. In these cases just think of what is a way that can be done in a logical repeatable and reliable fashion.

Staking everything on MSTS continuing to work for years into the future is probably a good way for the project to self distruct and this would be a very serious tragedy. I did read some where the MSTS is not supported (ie its not garunteed to work) in both windows 7 and 8. Remember MSTS is over 10 years old now, its a real major computor dinosaur.

Lindsay

[markus_GE]

 Lindsayts, on 25 November 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Staking everything on MSTS continuing to work for years into the future is probably a good way for the project to self distruct and this would be a very serious tragedy. I did read some where the MSTS is not supported (ie its not garunteed to work) in both windows 7 and 8. Remember MSTS is over 10 years old now, its a real major computor dinosaur.

I don´t quite get what you want to say here, Lindsay:

Do you mean, trying to Keep compatible to MSTS Content will lead OpR down the drain? Or do you mean relying on MSTS RE will do so?

If it´s the first, I guess, this has nothing to do with MSTS anymore. Loads of things are created already and I don´t think they will stop working in OpR if OpR works on newer platforms.

If it´s the second, I can get your Point, though I´m not a Content developer really.

Quote

(ie its not garunteed to work) in both windows 7 and 8

Been running MSTS without any Major Problems on Win7 for 4 years now (well, have not fired up anything else than MSTS´s AE for about a year or so now, but These still work "fine"). Maybe I might get permission by my brother to go and try both MSTS and OpR on a Win8 64-bit machine one day, as time Permits...

Cheers, Markus

[Genma Saotome]

 markus_GE, on 25 November 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Do you mean, trying to Keep compatible to MSTS Content will lead OpR down the drain? Or do you mean relying on MSTS RE will do so?

I'm sure he will answer for himself; My view on the question is sim users fall into several camps... at least: those who enjoying creating content, activity runners, and those who enjoy world editing. I've no idea what percentage of the community affiliates with each of those but I suspect a lot of people find that just 1 is the hook that keeps them going... that the others are nice but their loss would not be fatal to their continuing in the hobby. If that is the case, then clearly if you lose the means to do any of the three you are at risk for taking a severe blow to the size of the community... perhaps a fatal blow.

Of the three, Activity Running and content creation are probably the most secure. Route editing is much further back as it really is highly dependent on MSTS.

I think that's why separating the task of this team creating a route editor into (1st) replacing some / all of MSTS RE and (2nd) creating a new world editor for OR may have a lot of merit... think insurance policy.

[Lindsayts]

 markus_GE, on 25 November 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

I don´t quite get what you want to say here, Lindsay:

Do you mean, trying to Keep compatible to MSTS Content will lead OpR down the drain? Or do you mean relying on MSTS RE will do so?

If it´s the first, I guess, this has nothing to do with MSTS anymore. Loads of things are created already and I don´t think they will stop working in OpR if OpR works on newer platforms.

If it´s the second, I can get your Point, though I´m not a Content developer really.

Its the second one.

Quote

Been running MSTS without any Major Problems on Win7 for 4 years now (well, have not fired up anything else than MSTS´s AE for about a year or so now, but These still work "fine"). Maybe I might get permission by my brother to go and try both MSTS and OpR on a Win8 64-bit machine one day, as time Permits...

Cheers, Markus

As I understand it Microsoft releasd a statement saying MSTS was not supported on latter versions of windows. Although MSTS still works if the next patch/update for windows breaks MSTS, it will NOT be fixed as its not supported any more. Hence MSTS is currently living on borrowed time.

Saying also that an editor is not needed as there is plenty of items out there does nothing to catter for the handfull out there that really love to build things.

Lindsay

[markus_GE]

I´m not saying that enough Content out there means no Need for newere measn of creating new Content. I was just replying to the question I asked myself (according to your post referenced in mine) if Content could ever be broken by a new System OpR can run on too.

Since I myself have started to get into Content creation during summer, I´d by no means like any of the modes we have to stay as they are (ie. COMPLICATED). But that in no way is related, or in any way influnced by what I said above.


The Problem with latter Versions of Windows is obvious. But might an update to an existing Version really be as extensive as to break this one very old program, that still is a binary file of probably very much the same structure like an more modern one? And wouldn´t then other programs be broken too? If so, I would consider doing something like that, if I was in MS´ place.

Cheers, Markus

[Lindsayts]

 Genma Saotome, on 25 November 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

I'm sure he will answer for himself; My view on the question is sim users fall into several camps... at least: those who enjoying creating content, activity runners, and those who enjoy world editing. I've no idea what percentage of the community affiliates with each of those but I suspect a lot of people find that just 1 is the hook that keeps them going... that the others are nice but their loss would not be fatal to their continuing in the hobby. If that is the case, then clearly if you lose the means to do any of the three you are at risk for taking a severe blow to the size of the community... perhaps a fatal blow.

Of the three, Activity Running and content creation are probably the most secure. Route editing is much further back as it really is highly dependent on MSTS.

I think that's why separating the task of this team creating a route editor into (1st) replacing some / all of MSTS RE and (2nd) creating a new world editor for OR may have a lot of merit... think insurance policy.

I could not have said it better, the last sentence is what I think should be the aiming point.

I point I will make in the whole human race/experience the greatest restriction is caused be people saying "I can't do that" and not even trying.

Lindsay

[markus_GE]

Second that, Dave, and Lindsay (said above already: I´m trying, as time Permits, to teach me These things). And I´m also trying to avoid that Point of view. Sorry I I canßt always manage to do so.

[kjp115]

I imagine a lot of the route designers that are using Open Rails are guys that have been using MSTS and have not gone over to other media because of the fact they learned the RE and learned to use it well. Would that cause a problem with some of the more active designers having to learn a whole other system? Would the OR Editor get used, or would people still use the MSTS out of second nature. Would creation of such an item be detrimental to the core program? I've noticed a massive decline in activity for MSTS in the past few years, but when stuff is released, it is quite detailed. Eventually there will be a superior system. I would like to commend the developers because you have wrestled me away from the "other" sim. The physics of the operation is what keeps me using Open Rails now. I'd hope that would still be the primary focus.

Kenny

[railguy]

I sincerely hope that the OR team will pursue creating a route editor as part of OR. Relying on the MSTS "dinosaur" Route Editor for the foreseeable future is likely to bring real problems.

As for why I use OR as may favorite sim (and I have MSTS, Trainz 2012, Run8 and TS2014), OR still offers the best combination of everything--graphics, physics, scenery, content, user ability to modify, etc. Each one of the other sims beats OR in one or two of those, but then are very weak in other areas. Example: TS2014 has great scenery and some pretty awesome models, but uses "video game" physics and is hugely unfriendly to modify as far as adding content, etc.

The most wonderful thing about OR is that users make suggestions for improvements--and they actually happen most of the time, and within some reasonable timeframe. That alone makes me eternally grateful to the OR team.