Elvas Tower: Black Shadow Issue - Elvas Tower

Jump to content

  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Black Shadow Issue Rate Topic: -----

#21 Inactive_mestevet_*

  • Group: Status: Passengers (Obsolete)

Posted 18 December 2011 - 04:35 PM

 James Ross, on 18 December 2011 - 03:55 PM, said:

Just to let you know that I've been closely following this issue, but have no further suggestions at the current time. If it is only NVIDIA GeForece 7xxx cards that are affected, as appears to be the case so far, I'm afraid we'll probably just leave it. Unfortunately, I don't have a 7000-series card here and without a knowlegable OR graphics person investigating on an actual card, it's probable we won't figure out the actual cause at the code level - which is what we'd need to be able to work around the issue (either generally or with a specific hack).


Thanks, I couldn't have asked for a more honest answer. That helps me decide the direction I'm going to take. I'm still going to poke at the card settings and some of the other things I'm curious about, but it lets me know that I'm probably going to need to start shopping for a new video card.

Steve

#22 User is offline   dantheman 

  • Conductor
  • Group: Status: Active Member
  • Posts: 425
  • Joined: 17-August 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Surrey B.C.
  • Country:

Posted 18 December 2011 - 05:30 PM

Search for "ORTS" in regedit, find the folder thing with lots of valued like "Fullscreen", "Alerter", "WindowGlass" you need to make a DWORD entry named "ShadowMapBlur" with a value of "0"

#23 Inactive_mestevet_*

  • Group: Status: Passengers (Obsolete)

Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:32 AM

 mestevet, on 18 December 2011 - 01:13 PM, said:

I would like to try a few more things before I give up to try to a) understand why some models have the problem in the sim and others don't b ) see if there are any tweaks to DirectX that may help c) see if there is a combination of settings on the nVidia card that will help d) see if there are any other bright ideas

Steve


After spending a little bit of time with some of the models I listed that DON'T display the "Black Shadow" issue for me, with my nVidia 7800 card, I'm starting to get a sense of why some models DON'T show the issue, while others DO. If you look at my "tables" below, you'll notice that the models with surfaces that display the "Black Shadow" issue are all those using "Normal" texture mode, whereas the models where I didn't see the problem are all using either "Low Shine" or "High Shine".

Now that I've done the dirty work of looking at each one (in Shape Viewer), I suppose it makes sense. I'm theorizing the "normal" surfaces are not intended to reflect light and so they would be the most "in shadow", so they get into the "shadow" algorithm that the 7xxx card seems not to like, whereas the "shiny" surfaces are intended to reflect light, so are probably using a different light algorithm that doesn't sweat the 7xxx cards.

I don't know if this helps anyone to resolve the issue, but I think it's a reasonably significant result:

Rolling stock displaying the issue:
Model: Shaders, Materials for Surfaces displaying "Black Shadow"
BLLW P70 coaches: BlendATexDiff, Normal
BLLW N5 Cabin Car (caboose): BlendATexDiff, Normal
BLLW H21 hoppers: TexDiff, Normal
KLW Comets (all the different versions): BlendATexDiff, Normal
Tim Muir's MILW Boxcab: BlendATexDiff, Normal
Allen Norton's ATSF 4-8-4 #2925: TexDiff, Normal
Chris VanWagoner's B&O 4-6-2 #5300: TexDiff, Normal
Ron Pertuit's PRR Decapod: TexDiff, Normal and BlendATexDiff, Normal
NALW MP54 (all the different versions): BlendATexDiff, Normal
ALW CR Gondolas: TexDiff, Normal
Steven Hoffmeier's CWR cars: TexDiff, Normal
my (Steve Thomas) G38, G39, CWR flat cars, E44, and Silverliner II (all): BlendATexDiff, Normal and TexDiff, Normal

Rolling stock that DOES NOT display the issue, even when mixed in consist with the above rolling stock:
Model: Shaders, Materials for main body Surfaces** (those equivalent to ones displaying the "black shadow")
CLW PRR AS616: BlendATexDiff, High Shine (except some surfaces in a Freight Anim that were created in TSM): TexDiff, Normal - note this locomotive does have some "hood" surfaces that are also BlendATexDiff, Normal, so I'll have to look more closely at this one and see if only those surfaces show the "Black Shadow"
NALW AEM7 and ALP44: TexDiff, Low Shine
NALW Amfleet I: BlendATexDiff, High Shine and Tex Diff, High Shine
Buzz Benz' Amfleet II: BlendATexDiff, High Shine and Tex Diff, High Shine
Mike Laxer's Viewliners: Tex Diff, High Shine
Robert Fontaine's P42: BlendATexDiff, Low Shine
3DTrains DLW F-Unit: BlendATexDiff, High Shine
BLLW B60: BlendATexDiff, High Shine
3DTrains Pacific Surfliner equipment:
Surfliner Cab Car: Tex Diff, High Shine
F59PHI: Tex Diff, High Shine
Surfliner Coach: Tex Diff, High Shine
Metrolink Coach: Tex Diff, High Shine
Metrolink Cab Car: Tex Diff, High Shine

** just note that I was looking at the Shader and Material applied to the main body surfaces, the largest ones most easily seen, other surfaces on details or smaller parts may use other shaders and materials for those surfaces.

Steve

(BTW just so you know I'm not tilting at windmills, I was researching and went out to Best Buy to look at other video cards, anyone care to give me some advice?)

#24 User is offline   longiron 

  • Open Rails Developer
  • Group: Status: Elite Member
  • Posts: 3,179
  • Joined: 25-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Manasquan, NJ
  • Simulator:Open Rails, MSTS editors
  • Country:

Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:01 PM

 mestevet, on 19 December 2011 - 11:32 AM, said:

Steve

(BTW just so you know I'm not tilting at windmills, I was researching and went out to Best Buy to look at other video cards, anyone care to give me some advice?)


Please, don't go to Best Buy. They're good for a lot of things, but PC parts is not one of them. Give me your budget and PCI connectivity (1.0 or 2.0), and I'll take a look on Newegg and TigerDirect for you. Order and they're at your door in 3 days. Maybe with a delay if you try pre-XMas.

#25 Inactive_mestevet_*

  • Group: Status: Passengers (Obsolete)

Posted 19 December 2011 - 01:53 PM

 longiron, on 19 December 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:

Please, don't go to Best Buy. They're good for a lot of things, but PC parts is not one of them. Give me your budget and PCI connectivity (1.0 or 2.0), and I'll take a look on Newegg and TigerDirect for you. Order and they're at your door in 3 days. Maybe with a delay if you try pre-XMas.


Oh, as I said, I went to Best Buy and LOOKED at cards, I'm not so foolish to buy one there. I just happened to be passing by. I've found that sometimes getting hold of the box will have extra info that wasn't apparent on the website (like one of the cards I'd researched made no mention anywhere in the online documentation that it required 24A from the 12V bus, but the box did - my ancient power supply can't provide that). Also, it kinda gives me a "maximum" on the price which helps me when going to look for the best deal. And, I'm not busting at the seams that much to get it just yet.

I will admit to being a bit out of my element though, it's been a long time since I swapped out computer components (I've built a couple myself in the past) and no longer being in Southern California, I no longer have any "connections" for assistance as I once did.

The fact is that my 2005 era XPS400 is going to limit the cards that I can use. I HAVE found ample, up to date information though that PCIe 2.0 cards are actually backward compatible with PCIe 1.0 connectors and bus, that the 2.0 standard far exceeds the capability of even the best current cards (which I couldn't use anyway) and that the 1.0 standard can handle them.

No instead, what I've found is that I'm going to be power and heat dissipation limited. The XPS400 has a 375W power supply. Now, of course, I could go out and get a new power supply. But then I start asking myself, "if I buy a new power supply for $150 and a new video card for $200+, don't I start making a nice bite into the price of a completely new computer?" and with a new power supply, I'm having to make sure I don't screw up the power connections when I swap it, plus (and this is just basic thermodynamics) the more wattage in a power supply and a video card, the higher the heat dissipation is going to be, so do I start over-stressing my 6 year old hard drives, motherboard, and CPU with the extra heat?

So that starts narrowing down the range of acceptable cards (yeah, nothing like a nVidia GTX 590 is going to work, even though I could afford it). Sticking in the nVidia family, one 'current' card that looks like might work is the GT440, which looks like it would work power wise (and assuming everyone believes what I've read about the PCIe 1.0 compatibility), is rated in one place at 311 GFlops, whereas the 7800 GTX is about 165 GFlops, so conceivably that could indicate a performance increase.

Of course, looking at something like a 8xxx card would be possible from the PCIe 1.0 bus, but the high end would require more power. Something like an 8600 is conceivably in the power range, but the performance is lower than the 7800, don't wanna go backward.

What I don't know is how "firm" these power things are. They really don't give enough information (for an engineer like me, that is) to make a complete decision. The cards specs seem to say "needs a 700W power supply" or things like that, but finding the actual maximum "at the plug" amperage draw is difficult (that's why reading that box at Best Buy came in handy). Obviously, if I try to put a big sexy card in requiring too much power, it might not work right at all, or at the very least, is unlikely to perform up to it's price tag.

Anyhow, any insight into this is appreciated, and if you'd like to make a suggestion, Chris, I'm all ears... :bigboss:

Steve

#26 User is offline   longiron 

  • Open Rails Developer
  • Group: Status: Elite Member
  • Posts: 3,179
  • Joined: 25-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Manasquan, NJ
  • Simulator:Open Rails, MSTS editors
  • Country:

Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:10 PM

Best power calculator on the web: http://extreme.outer...culatorlite.jsp

Great tool to estimate the total power draw for your whole system. You can play with video cards and other peripherals to calculate the current draw and it will calculate when you exceed your 375W PS. Like those NASA guys on Apollo 13; "You cannot go over 20 amps!!!"

#27 User is offline   B & O GUY 

  • Vice President
  • Group: Status: Elite Member
  • Posts: 2,354
  • Joined: 14-May 08
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:New York State
  • Simulator:Open Rails
  • Country:

Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:21 PM

Steve

Go to the Cooler Master's web site and see if they have any refurbed power supplies. That's where I got my 650 and 750 watt power units from. They are a reputable supplier of computer parts and accessories. This is not a plug for them. I've just had real good luck with their service and parts.

Allen

#28 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

  • Owner Emeritus and Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: ET Admin
  • Posts: 15,359
  • Joined: 11-January 04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States
  • Simulator:Open Rails
  • Country:

Posted 19 December 2011 - 05:37 PM

FWIW it seems over the last 2 years or so that the ATI chipsets tend to draw less power than the nVidia chipsets, graphics performance being about equal, and they've tended to be less expensive too. OTOH, IMO ATI has a very bad driver update process.
  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users