[atsf37l]

thegrindre, on 12 March 2011 - 12:13 AM, said:

I wasn't necessarily referring to the F5 key, HUD, I was asking for this information displayed in an aide window. It's as Dave said, he's either lead by the hand as a trainee or given a 'map' of the area he'll be running.
I believe an aide would be the same as if 'we' were being trained to run a 'new' route.
This information is invaluable to any engineer. As I said, you just don't throw him to the wolves and tell him to hang on to the seat of his pants, you train him.
That's what an aide would do.

;)

It's called the "Student Trips" where a seasoned engineer takes a new one out on the road and says, "OK, three poles past this barn we hit a dip that'll take a knuckle if you don't get some air under her." That's all I'm asking for. As Rick said earlier, when you run the same run every day for a couple of years you don't even have to think about when to open the throttle or set some air. But with our many varied routes (I have 56 which I actually run, some of which are 300 miles + encompasing several crew change points!) we are all really student engineers on most routes. And, as I mentioned, we don't get the benefit of our office chairs and our bootocks telling us about the stresses on the train. :good: ;)

[Coonskin]

FWIW:

(NOTE: This is applicable to US practices. I do not know how they do it in the UK, Europe, etc.)

As an Engineer, I've been "loaned out" to other subdivisions/divisions, both with this company, and previous companies. That is, I'm sent off from my assigned sub and go work on a sub I've never seen before.

In such a situation, it is REQUIRED that you get a "Familiarization Run" under your belt (or several) before being turned loose on a new sub. This means a seasoned Engineer (not "Driver") on that sub is in the cab with you telling you what's ahead, what to watch for, etc. He may, or may not, be at the controls as he instructs. (That is, you may be at the controls and he's coaching, or he's at the controls explaining as you watch.)

I can't underestimate the importance of this. Take for example: The Sub that I currently work has 11 miles of southbound grade, the heaviest section peaking at nearly 2.5% for about 7 miles. You simply cannot send a man green to the territory off that grade with 8,000 tons behind him with nothing but air-equipped units (i.e. no DB's). That is begging for a disaster.

Track charts and profiles are not sufficient, it takes an experienced Engineer passing on his experience to the newcomer. That's the way it's done in the US.

I do not know if such a concept can be implemented into OR, but at least now any/all know what protocol is in the real world of US railroading. As for implementation... if yes: Great. If not: We're no worse off than any other sim, for they don't have such a feature, either. (Do they?)

[thegrindre]

Dave says he doesn't want to be told what button to push or what lever to pull and at what time to do it. Personally, I do until I learn the route. A gradient gauge would be a wonderful addition to one of the driver aids, IMO.
I need the help in learning a mountainous route I've never run on before.

How about you?

;)

[Falcus]

I have a question for Coonskin:

So as a "Green" engineer to a new sub, does the experienced Engineer "Tell you what buttons to push and when"? Something to the effect of "Ok, hit the air.... NOW!"

Or is it more like "Hey guy, this really nasty dip is around the next corner, watch for it"?

Maybe somewhere in between depending on who you're with?

And I agree in general that all train sims Ive seen to date are lacking heavily in what I guess I could call an "Administrative" function. When you DL a route, you're lucky if theres ANY documentation beyond credits, copyright, and install instructions. After that, you're on your own bub..... The ability to at least look at a map before you start trying to drive it would be incredibly useful (Without having to worry about trying to write down the station order BEFORE the game finishes loading off the Load Screen <.< ).

Would it be possible to create a function INSIDE of OR to call up a Map of a Route? To create an editor to create such maps? And have the option to create a map of varied details (Signals, switches, present location, maybe even track/switch status)? A Map like this could give users the ability to be a dispatcher beyond just talking to themselves while they run their locomotives. You could ( even build such a feature into Multiplayer games so that there would ACTUALLY BE a dispatcher with a version of a Computerized Live dispatch system (Yes, I know alot of Rail lines have nothing this fancy or expensive, but some do, and the ability to re-create it inside the sim would be unbelievabably helpful in things like multi Player games).

Thanks,
Alex

[Genma Saotome]

Expressing my concerns in a different way: reduced to absurdity, with all the possible help that could be provided you might as well let the PC run the train on it's own and the "player" can be reduced to a completely passive observer. At the other end of the spectrum, the sim provides no help whatsoever, (not even speed). The measure of where you are in that range can be expressed in terms of challenge... one has none, the other too much.

Saying the solution is to simply turn everything on or off is, IMO, not a good enough answer. Aside from the obvious presentation differences present in different eras there needs to be a layered approach measured by the challenge so there are logical, intermediate points of presented content between the two extremes. IOW, a designed solution.

[Phil Voxland]

A couple of thoughts:

Not long after I first began recreating an historical route, I ended up visiting a handful of local historical societies in the Minnesota iron ranges, looking for photos, maps, and manuscripts. At times I would bring my laptop and demonstrate the route in progress to the curators or volunteers. When I could show them what the simulation looked like (crude as it was or is), they wondered if it wouldn't make a pretty good exhibit. So what David calls and absurdity is for a museum exhibit spot on for other purposes. It would be real time presentation of the ore train and route which might be booted up in the morning and (if the activity could swap cabs) run for four hours southbound with a loaded ore train, and return northbound for four hours with empty ore cars).

With OR and wide screen higher resolution monitors, we have a lot more screen "real estate" to give optional information to whoever is sitting at the console. Most routes that can be bought or freely downloaded have pretty crude documentation, whether track schematics (showing switches, yards, side tracks, and structures), or track gradient profiles. As a simulation progresses, there isn't a lot of information to inform the operator "where am I" or "what is ahead". MSTS cabviews are challenging to create and as they try to show a live view of the track ahead plus the whole cab and controls, end up with dials and readouts that are too small to read easily.

Things that I can imagine:

* A pop up birds eye view, based on Google maps that show the train length centered on the surrounding map features
* A condensed track profile that can be dropped down from the top of the window showing the full length of the train and the next (some number of) miles or kilometers ahead (and the corresponding gradient)
* A fly out display from the side of the window that presents an array of standard and essential gauges (nice brass look for Steam Locos, Diesel era dials for later locomotives, Digital readouts for modern era equipment). Such a fly-out display can leave in place most of the view forward seen by the engineer.

A comment on gradients. When I am driving from my home in Minneapolis to our family cabin in the iron range I often set up my Garmin GPS to display a profile of the elevation along the route. Often I compare that with what I am seeing out the window. I realize that it not easy to be sure whether the road is level (rather rare) or is gradually climbing or descending. Our simulator view is even more crude than out the windshield view. A simple report of gradient (is easy to calculate (and even easier to ignore). Yes, I suppose there are other implicit gradient clues from engine performance or "slack" or "bunch" data values, and speed changes. What the heck, even the water level gauge in a steam locomotive cab I suppose can crudely approximate an gradient indicator.

I've never ridden in a cab, but I can imagine there are many informative sensations engineers and conductors hear and feel that OR and MSTS don't present. If we can give simulation operators visual clues to replace what being in the cab provides, well, so much the better.

[atsf37l]

Getting back to basics, THIS is all I'm looking for:
:oldstry:

Can any of you, looking at the above screen cap, tell me whether the grade ahead is up or down? Do you know, popping in at this point on a saved game from last month whether to apply throttle or brake?

No, neither do I without that "Elevation: -0.3%" notation.

It's part of the computed world. How hard can it be to display it? If you don't use it, fine. Give those who do the option.

Ps: The astute among you will notice that dynamics are engaged. :furiousPC:

[thegrindre]

Another good point, Herb. :furiousPC:

:oldstry:

[Genma Saotome]

FWIW Herb, I stopped reading with the question "...tell me whether the grade ahead is up or down?". I looked and thought very slightly downhill. Probably just a lucky guess.

I know from my professional experience of conducting data modeling sessions w/ business men and women that when an argument breaks out it is almost always because the participants have seized upon one word -- lets say it's "Customer" -- for which they both have deeply held but conflicting definitions. Neither is willing to give an inch because they KNOW what they know and that includes the other guy being completely wrong. The answer is, of course, the absence of a qualifier (IOW, when they're fighting to the death over what "Customer" means the addition of the qualifying words "Returning" for one team and "Prospective" for the other will immediately settle everyone down in a state of bliss because that's what each side had in mind).

Applying that lesson here means adding some qualifier(s) to the concept of Driver's Aid. One example could be the content of the Drivers Aid is based on a qualifying characteristic of the Person in the chair:

Presentation (see Phil's comments)
Trainee
Recently Qualified
Fully Qualified
Expert

It will be easier to agree on what belongs in 5 gradations of assistance than what goes into "On" when the choices are only "On/Off".

Further, in a really sophisticated solution, the above 5 could be configured into sets specific for Europe vs. North America (if that were to make any sense) or something else, like Pre-1900, 1900-1940, 1940-60, 1960-80, 1980-Present, assuming that made sense.

My point is the answer should not be a take it or leave it solution ("On/Off").
=========
FWIW, this is also why I was advocating a suite of CAMFIG's; There are different roles which call for their own set of views as well as different favorite ways to view the sim. Trying to squeeze every need and desire into just 8 cameras won't be enough.

[thegrindre]

Applying various skill levels to this sim is a perfect solution to all our differences about everything this sim has to offer, as far as I'm concerned. :furiousPC:

:oldstry: