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F5 HUD scrolling.

#11 User is online   scottb613 

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Posted 15 October 2019 - 05:40 AM

Hi Folks,

A couple more thoughts - let's make the Train HUD - the Train HUD - and remove information that doesn't pertain to actually "driving" a train...

I'm a minimalist - while we need the information - we need it compact, concise, and as unobtrusive as possible - how about something like this ?

(19 characters wide in example)

    TRAIN HUD
----------------------
TIME: 12:00:55
SPED: 0,0 kph
THRO: 0%
DIRC: N
BTRA: Serv 41% EQ60
      FOT BC30/BP60
      EOT BC30/BP60	
BLOC: 0%
BDYN: 0%
PANT: Down/Down
CIRC: Open
POWR: Off
----------------------


Deletions:
  • We don't need the software version staring us in the face - all the time - available elsewhere.
  • Gradient is already on the Track Monitor.
  • FPS - get it some other way - tends to be more of a distraction anyway - move to DEBUG HUDS ?
  • Multiplayer - do something else for the probably relatively few that use this feature - "Multiplayer HUD" ?


Using Carlo's Example of Electrics:

  • SPED = Speed
  • THRO = Throttle
  • DIRC = Reverser or Direction
  • BTRA = Brakes Train
  • _FOT = Front Of Train
  • _EOT = End Of Train
  • BLOC = Brakes Locomotive
  • BDYN = Brakes Dynamic
  • PANT = Pantographs
  • CIRC = Circuit Breakers
  • POWR = Power


Four letter identifiers should be more than sufficient to get the point across for any value and would probably only take a few minutes to get used to... It also keeps everything aligned nicely which helps get the needed information to the user as quickly and efficiently as possible...

The multiline train brake string seems to make it more "readable" to me vs the single line long string...

I think if we implemented something like what's listed above - in a window with tinted background - it may pretty much negate the need for control confirmations... The whole reason we needed "Control Confirmations" was the HUD was so difficult to see... Perhaps we could (one or more of the following) highlight/blink/bold/underline the actual value being actively changed by the user for a few seconds - in the HUD - as a new control confirmation - to immediately draw your eye to the value being modified ? This would eliminate the redundancy of control confirmations and the additional screen clutter that comes with it... This will also free up the key (in short supply) to blank "Control Confirmations" for PIX or VIDS - as you can simply close the HUD...

If there's any interest - I'll certainly make Steam and Diesel examples as well...

Very happy the HUD is finally getting some much needed and deserved TLC - please don't give up on us - Mauricio...

My nickels worth - thanks...

Regards,
Scott

#12 User is offline   mbm_OR 

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Posted 15 October 2019 - 01:18 PM

Hi,

View PostCsantucci, on 13 October 2019 - 11:54 PM, said:

I think that is shouldn't be wider than what is needed for the string in the first line...

The window width should be optimized taking into account the different data that should be displayed. It could also become multiple lines and then increase the window height.

View PostCsantucci, on 13 October 2019 - 11:54 PM, said:

Also, the on screen notifications could be divided into more than one line, or even left out of this window, as is now in the standard OR.

You could try the beta version with on screen notifications.

View PostCsantucci, on 13 October 2019 - 11:54 PM, said:

From this second picture you will see that there is a small bug displaying the multiplayer data (last two lines)

Was a bug, already fixed.

Attached are two beta versions:
With on screen notifications.

Without on screen notifications.
05/11/2019 New update here.


Quote

@Scott: How about something like this ?

The first look at your example was how to see an avionics panel display. Surely you like the flight simulator.

About deletions, the idea was a Basic HUD info:
  • Software version, available in the current F5 HUD.
  • Gradient is already on the Track Monitor but it helps.
  • Multiplayer is very popular for European users.

The four letter identifiers require a list of all them. All in English, then we would need to take locales into account.
Of course, the users should agree it.

I'll try to code an example.
We need to consider that everything related to the new HUD Basic window is a beta code for demo only.

Regards,
Mauricio

#13 User is online   scottb613 

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 03:16 AM

View Postmbm_OR, on 15 October 2019 - 01:18 PM, said:

Hi,

The first look at your example was how to see an avionics panel display. Surely you like the flight simulator.

About deletions, the idea was a Basic HUD info:
  • Software version, available in the current F5 HUD.
  • Gradient is already on the Track Monitor but it helps.
  • Multiplayer is very popular for European users.

The four letter identifiers require a list of all them. All in English, then we would need to take locales into account.
Of course, the users should agree it.

I'll try to code an example.
We need to consider that everything related to the new HUD Basic window is a beta code for demo only.

Regards,
Mauricio


Hi Mauricio,

Quote

Surely you like the flight simulator.


Hah - you've got that right - P3D - I fly for real as well...

Thanks so much for your interest and efforts - you've really made my day...

I am going to be home this weekend and I will make it a priority to test whatever I can when I get in on Friday...

I will certainly go through the HUD's at that time and come up with some abbreviation examples for Steam and Diesels as well - to hopefully make it easier for you... Sadly - I can only do English...

:thumbup3:

I hope some others join this discussion and offer feedback as well - as a redesign of the HUD is probably a big deal to the community...

Perhaps we should move this to a new topic with a title appropriate for what we’re working on now ?

Regards,
Scott

#14 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 09:34 AM

Keep gradient (calculated correctly by including a comparison of adjacent Z values)) because not being in the actual locomotive you can't feel the real changes and you do need to know what's going on for proper train handling in rolling terrain.

#15 User is online   scottb613 

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 01:43 PM

View PostGenma Saotome, on 16 October 2019 - 09:34 AM, said:

Keep gradient (calculated correctly by including a comparison of adjacent Z values)) because not being in the actual locomotive you can't feel the real changes and you do need to know what's going on for proper train handling in rolling terrain.


Hi Dave,

Just so we are both on the same page - is the gradient in the HUD defined differently than the one on the Track Monitor - and you feel we need them both ?

Regards,
Scott

#16 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 06:45 PM

View Postscottb613, on 16 October 2019 - 01:43 PM, said:

Hi Dave,

Just so we are both on the same page - is the gradient in the HUD defined differently than the one on the Track Monitor - and you feel we need them both ?

Regards,
Scott

One is specific and the other quite generic.

Now that I think I'm more concerned the number be on each line of anything that shows all individual cars.

#17 User is offline   steamer_ctn 

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 09:33 PM

I agree that it is timely to look at the HUD and I would like to contribute some thoughts to the discussion.

I would suggest that the first step is to agree a purpose for each of the current HUDs, or alternatively agree that they no longer have value as they currently exits. Then a discussion can be undertaken to determine whether fresh ways of presenting the information might be worth considering.

I believe that we have three HUDs at the moment and would like to suggest the following purposes to start the discussion in regard to the value of their information.
i) Train Driving HUD (Currently a single press of F5) - this should only provide minimal information relevant to driving the locomotive. So for example, it might ONLY be a duplication of gauges, and control positions in the cab. This allows the player to exit the cab and still allow them to remain in control.
ii) Train Operation HUD (Currently F4, F6, F8, and F9) - this should provide sufficient information for the train driver to operate the train "safely" and to time, etc.
iii) Train Performance Debug - (Currently F5, and then Shft+F5) - this should provide sufficient information to debug train performance and confirm correct operation, ie much the same sort of information already in situ. It should also provide performance information in regard to game engine debug/performance.

My personal preference is for the three of these HUDs to be retained in some form or other.

I agree that HUDs i) and ii) should be as "minimalistic" as possible, and present as small as intrusions as possible on the screen for the player (and be moveable). Ideally the HUD screen should be as translucent as possible so that game detail is not obscured, and yet at same time information presented should be legible (this may be difficult to achieve in practice).

It may also be good to include the following additional items into the Train Operation HUD - station names, refueling points such as water troughs, water towers, coaling stages, distant signals, etc.

View Postscottb613, on 15 October 2019 - 05:40 AM, said:

If there's any interest - I'll certainly make Steam and Diesel examples as well...
Yes please.

You will also need to consider variations, such as geared locomotives, etc. It might also be good to enable/disable features based upon whether they are present or not. For example if a locomotive is not geared then no gearing information needs to appear, etc. Similarly if no dynamic brake is installed then no dynamic brake information should appear.

Is it also timely to consider using a different key to access the Train Performance Debug Info? Is F3 in use at the moment?

#18 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 10:14 PM

Excellent observations Peter, thank you for sharing them.

What ever happened to the idea of using some sort of html portal from the OR software to secondary devices? That would allow those w/ second screens, either part of the PC or separate but web smart, to accept the "tightly composed" HUD data and thereby have no vcisual effect up what we see in-game.

#19 User is online   scottb613 

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 03:06 AM

Morn'n Folks,

Thanks gents - for the excellent feedback - just wanted to be sure I wasn't running amok with my suggestions...

While I can't speak for Mauricio - the guy actually doing the work - I'd suggest we start with the mods strictly to the basic [F5] HUD to keep this far more manageable (I'm sure this is a substantial amount of work all by itself and the basic F5 HUD is the one in the most desperate need of attention) - and then - if so inclined - he can look at the other HUD's ? Fully concur on the stated HUD's purposes and their continued existence...

Quote

You will also need to consider variations, such as geared locomotives


I will crank out some additional HUD examples over the weekend - for peer review... I forgot about geared locomotives - I think I have that Shay that came with Andre's payware pack - I can use that to see what's included... I'm also not an expert on all the brake types represented in the HUD and how much they differ in representation...

Quote

What ever happened to the idea of using some sort of html portal from the OR software to secondary devices? That would allow those w/ second screens, either part of the PC or separate but web smart, to accept the "tightly composed" HUD data and thereby have no visual effect up what we see in-game.


I believe Chris (cjakeman) was championing that cause and I think it was simply stalled for lack of programmer manpower... Yeah - again from my roots in Flight Sim - we're spoiled because we use second monitors and tablets for all kinds of auxiliary information, moving maps, addon programs, and even controls - it would be very helpful here as well... Ideally - at some point - all the HUD's (F Keys) should all be capable of being moved off the main display...

As for the multiplayer information - I didn't realize it was popular and used regularly - I was only gauging interest by the conversations I've seen in the forums here - hmm - perhaps I should take a closer look ? Still - even if popular - my humble opinion - is it still doesn't really belong on the "Train HUD" - does it ?

Regards,
Scott

#20 User is offline   steamer_ctn 

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 12:36 PM

Another point.

As we are contemplating some reasonably significant changes, it maybe worthwhile to highlight this thread in TrainSim, and UKTrainSim so that the widest possible audience can be engaged in the discussion.

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