[mbm_OR]

The purpose of this feature is presenting the F5 extended HUD debug help data in a more usable and visible form, by allowing to browse the info downwards and upwards, leftwards and rightwards, when the displayed info doesn't fit in the screen size.

This scroll feature is available to the next extended HUD debug help data sub-pages:

• Consist.
  
• Locomotive.
  
• Brake.
  
• Force.
  
• Dispatcher.

Also, when a car is selected through the F9 window, the car's brake line in the extended brake HUD is highlighted in yellow.

The Blueprint is here.

Attached is the new code for testing, since the OR x1.3.1-92 Testing version (Weekly update).
 F5HUDScroll-X131-92.zip (2.56MB)
Number of downloads: 741

25/01/2020. New update about 'Train Driving window' here.

Regards,
Mauricio

[scottb613]

Hi Mauricio,

First off - THANKS - so much for your interest in the HUD and your efforts...

Hah - what timing - I just opened a new Trello card on the HUD yesterday... I even started working on a mockup graphic of what it could look like - to help make my point...

I'm not sure this would be something you’d be willing to tackle - given your present scope of work - but if interested - here's my thoughts on it....

My thoughts only pertain to the default [F5] HUD - as realistically - this is something we use for actually driving trains - as opposed to all the [ALT] [F5] HUD's which seem to serve more of a debugging purpose...

Unfortunately - the virtual cab feature hasn't reached the point where they present all the information we need in an efficient and usable manner - therefore - I would think most have the [F5] HUD open - almost all the time...

That being said - the [F5] HUD screen which is the most commonly used when driving a train - should match the format and look of the other screens we use - such as the Track Monitor and Station Monitor - with the white borders and tinted display background... Making it an actual window like the others so the end user could customize it's placement to suit personal taste would help as well... While the consistency will make for a more visually pleasing display - it's practical purpose - is the white text on the sim background makes it extremely difficult to read - the shaded tint would help this greatly...

Ideally - if we could add say 4 blank lines at the bottom of the [F5] HUD and somehow move the control confirmations - into the new and improved [F5] HUD - it would help declutter the screen while putting all pertinent information in the same place and remove redundant information... If possible - maybe invert the text color - so they stand out when a control confirmation is present...

Anyway - the [F5] HUD has bothered my for a long time - as the text is easily lost in the background clutter... This is just my 2 cents on this - please take it for what it's worth... Thanks for the consideration - either way...

Regards,
Scott

[mbm_OR]

scottb613, on 07 October 2019 - 08:20 AM, said:

The [F5] HUD screen which is the most commonly used when driving a train...

Hi Scott,

The current HUD window data is displayed using a layered window.
Your suggestion is to display the basic HUD data using a window such as the Track Monitor or Next Station.
This idea seems to be reasonable and useful.

The attached test code use the next keys:

• F5. F5 HUD (layered window). Official OR.
  
• Shift + F5. Nav extended HUD debug sub-pages (layered window). Official OR.
  
• Ctrl + F5. New basic HUD data window. Test code.

This beta version allows testing, if all messages displayed currently as messages-window, are also displayed correctly into the new basic HUD window.

Attached is the test code aligned with the Official OR x1.3.1-96 Testing version.
Updated here.

Regards,
Mauricio

[wacampbell]

I know my opinion won't be popular, but I think the supplemental F5 pages should all be removed. They were added to help program debugging of the brakes and other physics systems and should have been disabled in the distributed versions.

My main reason for removal is to improve realism. The information on these supplemental screens are not available to real train drivers and should not be available to train drivers in the sim either. As for using the F5 screens for operations like uncoupling, or setting hand brakes, again, a real train driver cannot do this remotely from a screen. In the real world, someone has to be sent out to the car to uncouple it or do the other operations. A more realistic way to simulate this maybe using the free camera to travel to that car and then click on the coupler, or the handbrake wheel. Its just a better user interface.


Wayne

[Genma Saotome]

Needs vary... I use those screens all of the time and the ability to scroll will be an improvement, but my "all of the time" probably isn't the same as many others; For example, when I am trying to figure out what's going on with a new .wag or .eng file I find the information displayed is pretty important. Ditto for understanding the fps effects of primitives in various points of view, esp. after adding a bunch of stuff to a route. Does slack actually work? Have I missed changing the brake values anywhere in my consists? etc., etc.




Are they needed while running an activity? IMO not normally but if your interaction is about content they can be important aids.

[scottb613]

Hi Mauricio,

WOW - hah - you’ve certainly made my day - I’m very anxious to take a look at this and greatly appreciative of all your efforts... Unfortunately - I’m a lousy “beta tester” as I travel for work and I wont be home to try this until next weekend... I’m hoping someone else takes the time to load this up and offer feedback - in the interim... I’ll certainly make this a priority when I get in next weekend...

:sign_thanks:

As for the [Alt][F5] debugging HUD’s - yeah - I’ve never really used them as a crutch for driving trains - I’ve only used them as a tool for debugging models as part of the model development process... That said - if we ever decided to eliminate them - we’d need to work on the default [F5] HUD a bit - as it doesn’t contain the information necessary to “hand fire“ steam locomotives - that information is only present in the [Alt][F5] screens presently... It’s also less than ideal at the moment - because the control indications necessary are mixed in with the multitude of debugging values...

Regards,
Scott

[Csantucci]

Hi Mauricio,
thank you for having implemented that.
After having checked it - see picture -

I have some comments.
I think that the window is too big, in particular it is too wide. I think that is shouldn't be wider than what is needed for the string in the first line, which by the way could be further reduced by simply writing OR {version number}.
If strings are longer (as in case of the train brake) it could be divided into more than one line.
Also the on screen notifications could be divided into more than one line, or even left out of this window, as is now in the standard OR.
From this second picture you will see that there is a small bug displaying the multiplayer data (last two lines)

All this of course IMHO.

[Genma Saotome]

Csantucci, on 13 October 2019 - 11:54 PM, said:

I think that the window is too big, in particular it is too wide.
All this of course IMHO.

I've not seen the revised HUD... I have a question:

Can the black window be resized by the end user? If yes, then perhaps it could be used for all of the f5 displays by stretching it across the full width of the screen and shortening the height to make a window size acceptable each end user's tastes.

Based on the shared images, above, this looks very promising.

[steved]

I'm wondering if it would be possible to display these windows on another monitor.
Sorta like TSRE.
While it's being discussed and, hopefully, in development.

Steve

[scottb613]

Hi Folks,

Hah - thanks for posting some pix - yep - my opinion - concur with Carlo - the HUD needs to be adjusted to around the size of the Track Monitor - we don't want too much of our display covered (original had same issue to be fair to Mauricio) maybe we could abbreviate the text and multiline the brake parameters ?

Yeah - ultimately - we should be setting the stage to move these to an iPad or second monitor...

Appreciate all the interest and efforts !!!

:sign_thanks:

Regards,
Scott

[scottb613]

Hi Folks,

A couple more thoughts - let's make the Train HUD - the Train HUD - and remove information that doesn't pertain to actually "driving" a train...

I'm a minimalist - while we need the information - we need it compact, concise, and as unobtrusive as possible - how about something like this ?

(19 characters wide in example)

    TRAIN HUD
----------------------
TIME: 12:00:55
SPED: 0,0 kph
THRO: 0%
DIRC: N
BTRA: Serv 41% EQ60
      FOT BC30/BP60
      EOT BC30/BP60	
BLOC: 0%
BDYN: 0%
PANT: Down/Down
CIRC: Open
POWR: Off
----------------------

Deletions:

• We don't need the software version staring us in the face - all the time - available elsewhere.
  
• Gradient is already on the Track Monitor.
  
• FPS - get it some other way - tends to be more of a distraction anyway - move to DEBUG HUDS ?
  
• Multiplayer - do something else for the probably relatively few that use this feature - "Multiplayer HUD" ?

Using Carlo's Example of Electrics:

• SPED = Speed
  
• THRO = Throttle
  
• DIRC = Reverser or Direction
  
• BTRA = Brakes Train
  
• _FOT = Front Of Train
  
• _EOT = End Of Train
  
• BLOC = Brakes Locomotive
  
• BDYN = Brakes Dynamic
  
• PANT = Pantographs
  
• CIRC = Circuit Breakers
  
• POWR = Power

Four letter identifiers should be more than sufficient to get the point across for any value and would probably only take a few minutes to get used to... It also keeps everything aligned nicely which helps get the needed information to the user as quickly and efficiently as possible...

The multiline train brake string seems to make it more "readable" to me vs the single line long string...

I think if we implemented something like what's listed above - in a window with tinted background - it may pretty much negate the need for control confirmations... The whole reason we needed "Control Confirmations" was the HUD was so difficult to see... Perhaps we could (one or more of the following) highlight/blink/bold/underline the actual value being actively changed by the user for a few seconds - in the HUD - as a new control confirmation - to immediately draw your eye to the value being modified ? This would eliminate the redundancy of control confirmations and the additional screen clutter that comes with it... This will also free up the key (in short supply) to blank "Control Confirmations" for PIX or VIDS - as you can simply close the HUD...

If there's any interest - I'll certainly make Steam and Diesel examples as well...

Very happy the HUD is finally getting some much needed and deserved TLC - please don't give up on us - Mauricio...

My nickels worth - thanks...

Regards,
Scott

[mbm_OR]

Hi,

Csantucci, on 13 October 2019 - 11:54 PM, said:

I think that is shouldn't be wider than what is needed for the string in the first line...

The window width should be optimized taking into account the different data that should be displayed. It could also become multiple lines and then increase the window height.

Csantucci, on 13 October 2019 - 11:54 PM, said:

Also, the on screen notifications could be divided into more than one line, or even left out of this window, as is now in the standard OR.

You could try the beta version with on screen notifications.

Csantucci, on 13 October 2019 - 11:54 PM, said:

From this second picture you will see that there is a small bug displaying the multiplayer data (last two lines)

Was a bug, already fixed.

Attached are two beta versions:
With on screen notifications.

Without on screen notifications.
05/11/2019 New update here.

Quote

@Scott: How about something like this ?

The first look at your example was how to see an avionics panel display. Surely you like the flight simulator.

About deletions, the idea was a Basic HUD info:

• Software version, available in the current F5 HUD.
  
• Gradient is already on the Track Monitor but it helps.
  
• Multiplayer is very popular for European users.

The four letter identifiers require a list of all them. All in English, then we would need to take locales into account.
Of course, the users should agree it.

I'll try to code an example.
We need to consider that everything related to the new HUD Basic window is a beta code for demo only.

Regards,
Mauricio

[scottb613]

mbm_OR, on 15 October 2019 - 01:18 PM, said:

Hi,

The first look at your example was how to see an avionics panel display. Surely you like the flight simulator.

About deletions, the idea was a Basic HUD info:

• Software version, available in the current F5 HUD.
  
• Gradient is already on the Track Monitor but it helps.
  
• Multiplayer is very popular for European users.

The four letter identifiers require a list of all them. All in English, then we would need to take locales into account.
Of course, the users should agree it.

I'll try to code an example.
We need to consider that everything related to the new HUD Basic window is a beta code for demo only.

Regards,
Mauricio

Hi Mauricio,

Quote

Surely you like the flight simulator.

Hah - you've got that right - P3D - I fly for real as well...

Thanks so much for your interest and efforts - you've really made my day...

I am going to be home this weekend and I will make it a priority to test whatever I can when I get in on Friday...

I will certainly go through the HUD's at that time and come up with some abbreviation examples for Steam and Diesels as well - to hopefully make it easier for you... Sadly - I can only do English...

:thumbup3:

I hope some others join this discussion and offer feedback as well - as a redesign of the HUD is probably a big deal to the community...

Perhaps we should move this to a new topic with a title appropriate for what we’re working on now ?

Regards,
Scott

[Genma Saotome]

Keep gradient (calculated correctly by including a comparison of adjacent Z values)) because not being in the actual locomotive you can't feel the real changes and you do need to know what's going on for proper train handling in rolling terrain.

[scottb613]

Genma Saotome, on 16 October 2019 - 09:34 AM, said:

Keep gradient (calculated correctly by including a comparison of adjacent Z values)) because not being in the actual locomotive you can't feel the real changes and you do need to know what's going on for proper train handling in rolling terrain.

Hi Dave,

Just so we are both on the same page - is the gradient in the HUD defined differently than the one on the Track Monitor - and you feel we need them both ?

Regards,
Scott