[Genma Saotome]

W mode?

Can't rotate a painted texture? I did. A painted texture is a texture, period. Its behavior of art on a patch should be the same w/o regard to where/how it is created because you put the art in one file and the application data in another. You could solve the problem I reported by rotating the art in the palette. What you are telling me to do is make a copy of my art file, rotate it so the crop rows run left to right, make a texture from that, and put it into the \texture directory. IOW doing it EXACTLY as I would in the MSTS RE. In TSRE.

WRT the UI, I'll be blunt here: Your UI is a big mess. Activate a function in one window and its still active when you go to a different tools window that doesn't have that function. Function buttons scattered all over the place. I was giving you constructive feedback so your program could be improved and lessen the need to turn to other tools. You're paying to much attention to the people kissing your feet to see real problems where real problems exist,

[Goku]

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W mode?

mainWindowLayout = W
You enabled it in your settings.txt, so you should know. :)

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Can't rotate a painted texture? I did. A painted texture is a texture, period.

No. Texture with white border is painted terrain, not some texture. Also, I don't see any need when you need to rotate already painted texture. Texture is painted to fit between objects, so it will newer fit if rotated.

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What you are telling me to do is make a copy of my art file, rotate it so the crop rows run left to right, make a texture from that, and put it into the \texture directory. IOW doing it EXACTLY as I would in the MSTS RE. In TSRE.

No. You can first rotate your crops and then paint something on it.

Also, do you know that you can use any image file for painting? For put you can also use any image file, but remember about proper with/height.

Of course it is possible to do something with it if you really want, but .. what's the point of working a lot with this terrain system if there will be completely new procedural terrain in the future.

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WRT the UI, I'll be blunt here: Your UI is a big mess. Activate a function in one window and its still active when you go to a different tools window that doesn't have that function.

In the old version of TSRE it worked the way you want. But other users wanted present behaviour.

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You're paying to much attention to the people kissing your feet to see real problems where real problems exist,

I'm not sure what it means, I'm not good at english :)

[Genma Saotome]

Goku, on 24 October 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

mainWindowLayout = W
You enabled it in your settings.txt, so you should know. :)

I copied it from a post you wrote. There was no explanation present. Other codes were shown as an example, no explanation was present.

Goku, on 24 October 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

No. Texture with white border is painted terrain, not some texture. Also, I don't see any need when you need to rotate already painted texture. Texture is painted to fit between objects, so it will newer fit if rotated.

Painted terrain is saved as an .ace file and processed by OR as an ordinary .ace file. It IS a texture file. How it came to be created is ignored by OR. It has all the same attributes and there is no reason why your editor can do some things to textures I create outside of TSRE and not those created inside of TSRE..
The original texture file looks like this (this is from a screenshot so it's a bit distorted) where the rows run left to right:
 Emp019e.jpg (49.94K)
Number of downloads: 0
When I paint with it on this patch my left to right brush strokes produce this -- rows running up and down:
 Emp019d.jpg (230.92K)
Number of downloads: 1
Perhaps the original texture application did a rotation -- I don't know because there is nothing in the properties window that tells me its orientation.
If I rotate that (now painted upon) texture... it does rotate but when I continue to apply "paint" in a left to right motion the sweep of the "paint" pixels is up to down -- not the appearance of the pixels but the actual motion of the brush. This is repeatable and you should be able to verify it.
 Emp019f.jpg (243.1K)
Number of downloads: 1

Given the fact your Put function automatically does random rotation plus the fact your properties windows says nothing at all about the rotation of any texture the combination makes it impossible to correctly paint any texture that has distinct direction in its appearance... except by pure chance.

Goku, on 24 October 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

No. You can first rotate your crops and then paint something on it.

See the above answer.

Goku, on 24 October 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

Of course it is possible to do something with it if you really want, but .. what's the point of working a lot with this terrain system if there will be completely new procedural terrain in the future.

I doing this work now, not next month, not next year.

Goku, on 24 October 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

In the old version of TSRE it worked the way you want. But other users wanted present behavior.

I'll repeat myself: Your UI is a mess. I'm not telling you that do make you angry, I'm telling you that because I believe it to be a true statement and that on reading that feedback you will be open to re-examining what you have done, looking for ways to make it better.

As for functionality I've been asking for features that allow the route builder control over all of the variables that are in play WRT setting water level, applying terrtex, and painting. Not some control, not the control you think is adequate, control of ALL of the variables. And I ask for that because other tools provide some of it, because I know what data is being recorded in the files, because I've been doing route work for 14-15 years and have seen a whole lot of different situations where the routine method just isn't good enough, and because I've got 30+ years of professional I.T. experience, both as a contributor and as a manager and I've seen a lot of examples of a very wide range of understanding of end use by programmers from which I can say on average the level of understanding wasn't very high, either from active disinterest or lack of opportunity to learn. Feedback describing what people really do is essential to getting a superior product.

IOW I'm telling you how to make your program more robust rather than just suggesting you do things differently.

Goku, on 24 October 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

I'm not sure what it means, I'm not good at english :)

It means don't let all the complements fool you into thinking your program is better than whatever state it actually is. A lot of noobs are easily impressed. A lot of experienced people do appreciate better ways to do things. But don't be fooled into believing there are no more better ways to include or no more new features that would be appreciated.

[Goku]

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Given the fact your Put function automatically does random rotation plus the fact your properties windows says nothing at all about the rotation of any texture the combination makes it impossible to correctly paint any texture that has distinct direction in its appearance... except by pure chance.

You could always paint transformed standard msts textures. Watch this video:
https://www.youtube....h?v=mTcQCwZLSfk

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See the above answer.

So, you require something like painting softawre in TSRE? Painting development was abandoned because someone said that TSRE shoudn't have painting, but be like MOSAIC - allow export/import to other painting apps. I think maybe it was you?

If you want to rotate painted textures, here is version for you, you can try:
http://koniec.org/ts...RE5_v0.6927.exe

I'm not ignoring your suggesrions that UI is bad. There are some small changes coming all the time. You have context menu (right click), where you will be able to choose most useful functions, new terrain properties to help do something with the terrain tools mess on the right ..
That is why there is still no good TSRE guide, because UI is not done.

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Not some control, not the control you think is adequate, control of ALL of the variables.

What is missing for you?

[Goku]

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your properties windows says nothing at all about the rotation

Because there is nothing like rotation/mirror etc. for terrain textures. Texture position in .t file is controlled by one crop transformation (ugly numbers).

[Genma Saotome]

Goku, on 24 October 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

What is missing for you?

There are not on/off settings to select all of the possible orientation for applying tertex art to the patch:
For rotation

• No rotation
  
• 90d rotation
  
• 180d rotation
  
• 270d rotation
  
• Random rotation <--=TSRE does this

For flipping

• No flip
  
• Flip left-right
  
• Flip up-down
  
• Random flip <--=TSRE does this

For Scaling

• 1x1 (default) <--=TSRE does this
  
• U axis [2..n times]
  
• V axis [2 to n times]

In many cases both the random rotation and flip are ideal but they are not correct for all situations. Assume I'm painting 60 patches and I need them to be oriented identically and in a specific way. In TSRE I can paint all 60 with a lot of mouse movement and then click n number of times on at least half to correct all those that are oriented incorrectly. OTOH If I could click 90d rotation, no flip, I could correctly paint all 60 in one pass.


WRT applying terrtex, Mosaic is a 2d editor and in some situations it will be superior to a 3d editor. For instance if I need to apply a texture to 3/4 of a tile and do so for 5 continuous tiles (that's 280 patches) I can do that with two mouse clicks for selection and one return keystroke to apply the art. That's way more efficient than using TSRE. The same steps can be taken for 4 patches or part of one. Mosaic will also allow me to place any terrtex file on Distant Mountain (DM) "tiles". TSRE has nothing at all for DM. OTOH doing tertex work in TSRE is better when you need to be aware of placed objects. So I switch between the two tools and use each for where it excels.

Second point is one should be able to do all of the same terrtex work to a DM tile as one can do to an ordinary tile, limited only but any variation in their .t files.

Third point is one should be able to do all of the same terrtex work with a microtex file as one can do to other .ace files, limited only but any variation in their .t files.

For information, I should be able too review an interpretation of the values held in the .t file that describe each .ace file on a tile, its orientation by rotation and by flipping, it's scaling, and its name and see the sme for the assocaited microtex file.

Last, there is a difference between the values you have set for using the tool and the value s that were used on the patch you selected for review. Both should be visible and include all the values the tile file will allow.



WRT water level the way you currently use the SW corner value is fine for lakes, terrible for rivers or streams. For the later you need to be aware of the level already set in the 8 adjacent tiles (actually just the values for the one corner that touches the tile you are editing. You can copy the values from those four corners (automatic would be nice but manual is acceptable) and as needed edit both tiles values at their common corner.

So for controls it would be something equivalent to this:

• Lake -- one value is all that needs to be captured. If would be ideal if one could use the same value as before and go click, click, click across the tiles.
  
• River -- four values need to be captured. This where where one normally has to keep the corner values in sync with the touching corner of the adjacent tiles.

I'd comment about painting but I'm going to hold off on that as I do not understand how/why the art on that patch, saved as an .ace file, certain data kept in the .t file, must be regarded differently than an .ace file applied to any other patch.

[Goku]

New version for you: http://koniec.org/ts...RE5_v0.6928.exe

Genma Saotome, on 23 October 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

IOW the properties window are entirely informational (or almost entirely so) and the tool window is almost entirely functiona.

Properties window is used to edit selected object.
Tools window is used to use route wide tools, or other things not related with selected object.

Terrain Tools Window is a mess, because in earlier versions of TSRE terrain wasn't selectable. But now functions are slowly moved where they should be.

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There are not on/off settings to select all of the possible orientation for applying tertex art to the patch:

Now you can not only rotate, but mirror and scale patch texture.

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In TSRE I can paint all 60 with a lot of mouse movement and then click n number of times on at least half to correct all those that are oriented incorrectly. OTOH If I could click 90d rotation, no flip, I could correctly paint all 60 in one pass.

Select patches and use "Put Texture" context menu option instead of "Put" tool and you will have all textures oriented one way. You can set desired texture transformation for all patches at once.

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Mosaic is a 2d editor and in some situations it will be superior to a 3d editor. For instance if I need to apply a texture to 3/4 of a tile and do so for 5 continuous tiles (that's 280 patches) I can do that with two mouse clicks for selection and one return keystroke to apply the art.

Did you know that you can select multiple patches using Ctrl? (one tile limitation)

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For information, I should be able too review an interpretation of the values held in the .t file that describe each .ace file on a tile, its orientation by rotation and by flipping, it's scaling, and its name and see the sme for the assocaited microtex file.

If you want to see texture transformation (scale/rotate/flip/crop) - paste it to notepad. IMO it's useless to display it in TSRE. For texture names and its parameters you need to wait for Terrain Shader Editor. And AE has priority over RE, you know ...

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WRT water level the way you currently use the SW corner value is fine for lakes, terrible for rivers or streams.

Fixed. I was thinking it was fixed months ago.

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I'd comment about painting but I'm going to hold off on that as I do not understand how/why the art on that patch, saved as an .ace file, certain data kept in the .t file, must be regarded differently than an .ace file applied to any other patch.

And that's the thing I don't like when working with you. I gave you new version with fix for your problems, and you ingored it. And it's not first time. You always has lots of suggestions I can't do in one day, or even week, so they disappear in this forum. And even if I do something month later, you don't know about it.

Maybe I'll create for you google doc file if you want to make useful suggestions? Some other route builders use this method and their suggestions are done over time:

https://i.imgur.com/y3TDTqO.png

[Genma Saotome]

Partial answers,

Did not notice mention of new version until now, after you pointed it out. I am now using .6928.

The texture properties window is improved but I found it a bit difficult to work with... it wasn't obvious how to get the select button to let go of the previous tile and select another. I'll try and document that later tonight.



The water height window is better than before. Would be ideal if you could display the height values like this:
 q.jpg (9.83K)
Number of downloads: 0

The four values in the center (in black) are for the tile you are working on. The other values (in blue) are from the adjacent tiles. Generally speaking a route builder is going to want the values closest to each corner of the center tile to be equal. There are situations where you don't do that but those a rather rare. Being able to see all of the values is a big improvement. Being able to edit any of those values is ideal. What I do now is record those values in a spreadsheet so as i work if I'm not happy w/ the results I'm getting I can review the entire situation at a glance and assess the possible impact of further edits. It also tells me where I have goofed... as in all four values at a common corner are not the same.

Like I said, just seeing all of those the numbers in TSRE would be a very big improvement.



I went to the patch I had been painting before, clicked on texture, tried to paint some pixels and TSRE aborted. Will attempt again later tonite to see if I can reproduce it.

[Genma Saotome]

A bit more feedback. It appears you've changed how the user interacts with displaying the water height screen as well as display/hide water layer. What I see now is hte need to select a patch before you can do display/ hide water... and that Display Water height appears to be limited to the tile where the camera is located. If that description is correct then I would suggest the way it was before was superior... activate display water height then click where you wanted -- this tile, that tile, etc. Similar, display/hide water (layer) would also be better if the icon activated the function and then the application occurred where you clicked.

My reasoning here is you do need to know the water height for adjacent tiles... even if you implement the suggestion I gave you above you still might want to apply t hat function in the tile adjacent to where the camera is. If you think about it, you might set up the water height on the tile you are in and when done want to do the same for the adjacent tile you can see. Moving the camera position is more of a bother than moving the mouse cursor.


WRT my thoughts on display/hide water... I think the addition of the hide button is good. WRT to using mouse clicks to apply the function there is a dilemma: If I was doing a large lake it would be faster to select a big portion of the lake patches and activate water on all of them at once. OTOH, if I was doing a meandering river the act of selecting a big bunch of patches would include a lot that should not have water activated so here it would be better to go one by one with mouse clicks.

Perhaps the solution to this dilemma is an improved selection function: <shift> Click here then there defines a contiguous area, <cntl> click lets you select individual tiles. <shift> and <cntl> can be combined in sequences, meaning <shift> to select a 3x6 area and then <cntl> click, click, click adds three individual patches to the selection. Mosaic does this.

OTOH, if that is not feasible then I would vote for activate function, mouse click 1..n to apply.

[Genma Saotome]

More feedback... Scale function works as expected (at first) but when you return to a patch that has been scaled, say from 1 to 4, the value displayed in the properties window is 1, not 4 as it should. Entering 4 a second time scales the image a second time (I expect this means a value of 16). Leave... return... the value displayed is 1 again.

Using the Put function to apply a different texture does not reset the scaling. I suppose you could say that's the way it should be but I believe the application of a different texture should reset scaling, rotation, etc. etc. to whatever has been specified for use with Put.

I do understand this is a work in progress... I just don't know ho much you already know vs. something that might be a surprise so I'm just documenting everything I see that could be done better or appears to be an error relative to a finished product.