[R H Steele]

Laci1959, on 18 July 2021 - 09:10 AM, said:

Hello
I am sorry to say the opposite, but km / h and kN are used on Eastern European railways. Many Czech, Slovak and Hungarian locomotives use the ORTSTractionCharacteristics table where km / h and kN are given. 0 - 200 km / h in 2.5 km / h increments per line. We have an electric locomotive that has 36 gears. The 81 × 36 data that should be overwritten. I make such tables myself so I protect this value.

Sincerely, Laci 1959

Laci, ( I beg your pardon, but I believe you are missing an essential point of the discussion ). We all realize that different geographic areas use different units of measurement in their tech documents, specification and working manuals...however, OR as a matter of design principles has adopted the SI UoM ( International System of Units -- basic & derived units ). In the case of the ORTSMaxTractive curve set the correct SI UoM would be m/s and newtons...which would not have to be expressed after the values. All other units accepted by OR would have to be placed immediately after the values for correct interpretation. km/h and kN would be accepted, but would have to be written after the values in the table. In the US you find many manuals with mph and foot lbs of force.
All this is outlined in Appendix 22.1 in the manual.

Quote

I make such tables myself so I protect this value.

You're values will still be accepted, they will have to be explicitly stated immediately after the data in the table.

example: 20km/h 20kN

[Laci1959]

R H Steele, on 18 July 2021 - 10:37 AM, said:

Laci, ( I beg your pardon, but I believe you are missing an essential point of the discussion ). We all realize that different geographic areas use different units of measurement in their tech documents, specification and working manuals...however, OR as a matter of design principles has adopted the SI UoM ( International System of Units -- basic & derived units ). In the case of the ORTSMaxTractive curve set the correct SI UoM would be m/s and newtons...which would not have to be expressed after the values. All other units accepted by OR would have to be placed immediately after the values for correct interpretation. km/h and kN would be accepted, but would have to be written after the values in the table. In the US you find many manuals with mph and foot lbs of force.
All this is outlined in Appendix 22.1 in the manual.

Your values will still be accepted, they will have to be explicitly stated immediately after the data in the table.

example: 20km/h 20kN

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I was a little scared.

[DirtyRam]

Good day all, I've found that mph and ft/s are used in SI unit system. The OR manual UofM, Speed section has mph listed but has applies to dynamic brake. So can the mph be used, if not can mph and/or ft/s be added for the MaxTractiveForceCurves, I'm hoping.
Now, hey Gerry, the numbers you have in your tables when you compiled them would not be the same as with mph or ft/s, I'm guessing. Could I convert them using m/s to mph or ft/s, assuming I can find those units. I've been using Conversion of Measurement Units website and haven't looked yet. Finally, they wouldn't be the same and just emend the units, would they.

Mike

[R H Steele]

DirtyRam, on 18 July 2021 - 03:42 PM, said:

Good day all, I've found that mph and ft/s are used in SI unit system. The OR manual UofM, Speed section has mph listed but has applies to dynamic brake. So can the mph be used, if not can mph and/or ft/s be added for the MaxTractiveForceCurves, I'm hoping.
Now, hey Gerry, the numbers you have in your tables when you compiled them would not be the same as with mph or ft/s, I'm guessing. Could I convert them using m/s to mph or ft/s, assuming I can find those units. I've been using Conversion of Measurement Units website and haven't looked yet. Finally, they wouldn't be the same and just emend the units, would they.

Mike

Mike the max tractive table included with the Std_Eng files is in m/s and Newtons
Conversion formula's are easy to find...you could make a spreadsheet calculator and it would do it for you...or you could just wait until Peter untangled the mess, and perhaps you will not have to do anything, assuming the coding is corrected to read the table in m/s and N when there are no UoM present.

To quote from a physics textbook on SI units ( basic and derived -- velocity ( common name -- speed ) is a derived unit

Quote

If we remember, displacement is usually addressed in meters, and time taken is depicted in seconds. Therefore, velocity is expressed in meters/second or m/s.

The SI unit of velocity is meter per second (m/s).

you can use other units, Appendix 22.1 in manual lists all accepted UoM with default units -- those not needed to be included after values -- in 1st column. (but after this discussion, I'm dubious about that and will probably include UoM after values. I'll stick to m/s and Newtons, don't want to do the tedious work of converting all those values, especially when it is not really necessary.)

[steamer_ctn]

R H Steele, on 18 July 2021 - 04:11 PM, said:

To quote from a physics textbook on SI units ( basic and derived -- velocity ( common name -- speed ) is a derived unit you can use other units, Appendix 22.1 in manual lists all accepted UoM with default units -- those not needed to be included after values -- in 1st column. (but after this discussion, I'm dubious about that and will probably include UoM after values. I'll stick to m/s and Newtons, don't want to do the tedious work of converting all those values, especially when it is not really necessary.)

As a general rule, I would strongly recommend that UoM should always be added to an ENG/WAG file (where ever possible - there are a small number of parameters which don't have UoM) as this will ensure that OR always reads it correctly, and it also helps anybody reading your files to know what values you have used.

[Jean-Paul]

R H Steele, on 18 July 2021 - 04:11 PM, said:

Mike the max tractive table included with the Std_Eng files is in m/s and Newtons
Conversion formula's are easy to find...you could make a spreadsheet calculator and it would do it for you...or you could just wait until Peter untangled the mess, and perhaps you will not have to do anything, assuming the coding is corrected to read the table in m/s and N when there are no UoM present.

To quote from a physics textbook on SI units ( basic and derived -- velocity ( common name -- speed ) is a derived unit you can use other units, Appendix 22.1 in manual lists all accepted UoM with default units -- those not needed to be included after values -- in 1st column. (but after this discussion, I'm dubious about that and will probably include UoM after values. I'll stick to m/s and Newtons, don't want to do the tedious work of converting all those values, especially when it is not really necessary.)

Hi !
That's only purely formal, but I agree completely with you ! If international units were created and approved, it was precisely to do that a common language exists and be understandable by everybody. Local uses remain, but if they must be taken in account, it's an awful brain teaser ! In France, for instance, before Revolution, and even during 19th century, there were measurement units which were different from a district to another : the "aune" (length mesure) was not the same when you travelled from Burgundy to Picardy... (300 km - around 200 miles between those two provinces). And we could reproduce these cases at will !
So, I overwhelmingly approve of your point of view !
Cheers,
Jean-Paul

[DirtyRam]

R H Steele, on 18 July 2021 - 04:11 PM, said:

Mike the max tractive table included with the Std_Eng files is in m/s and Newtons
Conversion formula's are easy to find...you could make a spreadsheet calculator and it would do it for you...or you could just wait until Peter untangled the mess, and perhaps you will not have to do anything, assuming the coding is corrected to read the table in m/s and N when there are no UoM present.

To quote from a physics textbook on SI units ( basic and derived -- velocity ( common name -- speed ) is a derived unit you can use other units, Appendix 22.1 in manual lists all accepted UoM with default units -- those not needed to be included after values -- in 1st column. (but after this discussion, I'm dubious about that and will probably include UoM after values. I'll stick to m/s and Newtons, don't want to do the tedious work of converting all those values, especially when it is not really necessary.)

Hey Gerry, I understand what you are saying, thats how I know whats in the speed table at this time. I agree we have to wait until the dust settles and we know how we need to proceed. I was assuming that it would be changed to how you set up your files to date. I was just trying to do a little recon for when we have the code established. I was jumping the gun, apologies. I have been supporting what you have done to this point, and hoping you won't have to redo all your hard work.
Thanks bud, appreciate everything you do

Mike

[DirtyRam]

steamer_ctn, on 18 July 2021 - 10:19 PM, said:

As a general rule, I would strongly recommend that UoM should always be added to an ENG/WAG file (where ever possible - there are a small number of parameters which don't have UoM) as this will ensure that OR always reads it correctly, and it also helps anybody reading your files to know what values you have used.

Hey Peter, I concur, I've been doing that very thing, when possible. That's the fun of trying to figure out what units Gerry has been working with, so I know how to change them for my needs.
Thanks very much for your input and everything you do, also

Mike

[R H Steele]

Yes, not using UoM after table and parameter values was one of the items Peter pointed out to me when I was working on the Std_Eng files, his example at the time was the absence of pressure & temp UoM. I just did not think it through to conclusion...now I'm adding UoM where applicable. I've certainly had numerous queries about this point.

[darwins]

Is there a way to add UoM to data table headings? I dread the thought of having to add units to every one of several hundred individual numbers...