[scottb613]

James Ross, on 02 January 2023 - 09:02 AM, said:

For right now, I'm only going to improve the distortion shown earlier in this thread, while keeping the same texture and rendering

However, I am cleaning up the code as much as I can, so it may be easier to make further improvements afterwards




If you - or anyone else - are able to improve the existing "Clouds01" texture within the current Open Rails rendering, I'd gladly take it as a step forward


I would probably want to proceed (whether myself or others) in roughly this order:

• Fix distortion of sky textures - in progress right now
  
• Validate sun and moon positions calculated from latitude/longitude/season (including horizon crossing time)
  
• Validate brightness, colours, and visible textures (e.g. stars) for the day/night and three stages of twilight (dawn/dusk)
  
• Merge the disconnected wind simulations (currently there are THREE separate wind speeds and directions inside Open Rails)
  
• More general investigation of ways to improve the appearance of weather, etc.

Hi James,

This all sounds very promising and exciting - as this area of ORTS has been sorely neglected for a very long time.

Thanks for your efforts on moving the ball forward. I'll look at "Clouds01" this week and see what I can do. I'll add it here if I come up with something useable.

Regards,
Scott

[scottb613]

James Ross, on 02 January 2023 - 09:02 AM, said:

If you - or anyone else - are able to improve the existing "Clouds01" texture within the current Open Rails rendering, I'd gladly take it as a step forward.

Hi James,

Just a preliminary so we're on the same page - added custom clouds - increased res to 4096 (I can go higher) - implemented seamless tiling - added a 20 pix border grid to see how the file is tiled and check my seamless edges. There appears to be some distortion. The other issue with this system - since the sky is tiled - there is no way to scale the clouds as they approach the distant horizon (as I had with Terragen). If this is what you're looking for - I could certainly fine tune this - add other types of clouds - different weather conditions - etc etc etc.

Clouds01 Test File
 Clouds01.zip (14.57MB)
Number of downloads: 182

Regards,
Scott

[steved]

Scott,
These are your clouds over Open Rails HD Skydome #1.
https://i.imgur.com/XHeUqsO.jpgIt adds a nice lower cloud level.
Looks pretty good to me.

Randy

[scottb613]

Weter, on 02 January 2023 - 12:17 PM, said:

14.5 MB for zipped(!) texture? Isn't that too big?

Hi Weter,

PNG's don't compress very much.

steved, on 02 January 2023 - 12:39 PM, said:

Scott,
These are your clouds over Open Rails HD Skydome #1.
It adds a nice lower cloud level.
Looks pretty good to me.

Randy

Hi Randy,

Thanks for posting.
:)

I'm still not sure of James full intentions - I think he'd like to remove all clouds from the Skydome and simply use additional textures - such as Clouds01 - for cloud layers? I don't know how all this will shake out but I'm very happy to see Developer interest in our environment. I'll gladly try to accommodate whatever James wants to try.

Regards,
Scott

[James Ross]

scottb613, on 02 January 2023 - 08:13 AM, said:

I checked the latest development build - I didn’t see any change to the Skydome - would it be possible to share the fix you already have so we can take a look?

Sorry it took until now to share, the code took longer than I expected to wrangle

Any Unstable Version from U2023.01.02-1736 onwards should have the replaced sky code

scottb613, on 02 January 2023 - 12:08 PM, said:

Just a preliminary so we're on the same page - added custom clouds - increased res to 4096 (I can go higher) - implemented seamless tiling - added a 20 pix border grid to see how the file is tiled and check my seamless edges. There appears to be some distortion. The other issue with this system - since the sky is tiled - there is no way to scale the clouds as they approach the distant horizon (as I had with Terragen). If this is what you're looking for - I could certainly fine tune this - add other types of clouds - different weather conditions - etc etc etc.

There will always be some distortion wrapping a moving 2D texture onto a sphere, and improving that comes at the cost of a bigger dome mesh (although it is still pretty tiny) - but, in my tests with grid+circular texture patterns, the new code is a big improvement

As for the clouds near vs the horizon, it gets tricky:

• You can flatten the dome (so the top is nearer), but probably still not proportionally right
  
• You can try to deform the repeating texture so it repeats more frequently in the distance, but the maths is harder
  
• Maybe something else?

I will have to experiment here to see if anything looks good

scottb613, on 02 January 2023 - 01:11 PM, said:

I'm still not sure of James full intentions - I think he'd like to remove all clouds from the Skydome and simply use additional textures - such as Clouds01 - for cloud layers? I don't know how all this will shake out but I'm very happy to see Developer interest in our environment. I'll gladly try to accommodate whatever James wants to try.

The sky and clouds are already separate textures/layers and I have not changed that - the sky is a simple blue circular texture and the sun (shader), moon (separate mesh), and clouds (separate dome) are blended on top variously

[James Ross]

James Ross, on 02 January 2023 - 02:29 PM, said:

You can flatten the dome (so the top is nearer), but probably still not proportionally right

I have flattened the cloud dome in U2023.01.02-2251 (available in a few minutes), which looks like it does a better job with the clouds perspective, although the "horizon overlap" is now significantly reduced (further work required if we go this route)

[scottb613]

James Ross, on 02 January 2023 - 02:52 PM, said:

I have flattened the cloud dome in U2023.01.02-2251 (available in a few minutes), which looks like it does a better job with the clouds perspective, although the "horizon overlap" is now significantly reduced (further work required if we go this route)

Hi James,

I looked at your first upload - skydome mapping is PERFECT as far as I’m concerned - the skydome with clouds painted on the texture looks so much better. Thank You.

When I tested the Clouds01 in the same version - the mapping appeared different than the previous version - the old versioned seemed better. I only had a few minutes to play with it - I’ll do more testing tomorrow and provide better feedback - as I have to run out. I haven’t looked at the flattened version yet…

If you want to try any other ideas and you need a different or modified texture - please let me know.

Seriously - I greatly appreciate your efforts.

Regards,
Scott

[scottb613]

James Ross, on 02 January 2023 - 02:52 PM, said:

I have flattened the cloud dome in U2023.01.02-2251 (available in a few minutes), which looks like it does a better job with the clouds perspective, although the "horizon overlap" is now significantly reduced (further work required if we go this route)

Hi James,

I've looked at the sky in detail - and your "flattened" dome to display "Clouds01" is much better. It adds more of a perception of overall distance to any given scene.

One thing that's been a minor issue over the years - is we can't blank out the "Clouds01" completely using the [Ctrl] [+] and [-] keys - it's always present. As a result - I think many of us have resorted to using a completely alpha'd out "Clouds01" - as when "Clouds01" is present - it seems to reduce the overall brightness of the sim. When blanked - a bright sunny day seems more like a bright sunny day in the sim. This is what I run 99% of the time.

I've messed with "Clouds01" a bunch today and tried a number of different variations - and nothing I can do with Clouds01 seems to actually improve the look of the sky over what I can with Terragen (ray traced clouds) alone. Granted "Clouds01" adds movement and is needed if we ever want to see dynamic weather. If dynamic weather is a goal - we'd need a better system for handling "Cloud01" textures or multiple textures to implement realistic transitions and changing conditions. I realize we can add precip and such now via activities - I'm talking about using different textures or combinations of textures.

I've included more test files - linked below. A new version of Clouds01 (no border) - a new 7.5K x 7.5K light Cirrus Terragen Skydome (trying smaller) - and - a clear blue Skydome I've used on my system for years.

If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions on the textures - I'm more than willing to try them.


My Sky Test Files:
https://mega.nz/file...H4571jPxXAe4G7g


Regards,
Scott

[Weter]

Quote

it seems to reduce the overall brightness of the sim

Hello. I have the same impression. Though Options tab offer overall ambient brightness slider, but I never used that.

Quote

we can't blank out the "Clouds01" completely using the [Ctrl] [+] and [-] keys - it's always present

What irritates me too, from time to time. Especially, when I use non-default clouds.png texture. (default one is able to become almost invisible, but not so nice-looking, if solid)

Quote

multiple textures to implement realistic transitions and changing conditions

Indeed: the variants, which are available now (to be selected for appear in game one-a-time), are well-fitting dry or rainy/stormy conditions, but are far not universal.
I mean, the variant, well-representing heavy rain clouds would look odd, when it made more transparent.
The other case - very beautiful-shaped clouds, causing nasty impression, when are being cloned all over the sky.
(too-specifically looking details, as hammer-like part, or turtle-like storm cloud - being seen everywhere)

[Genma Saotome]

Feedback: As the sun descends into the western horizon its diameter increases by at least 10x. The waters of the planet don't boil off as expected. :lol2: Hopefully an easy fix.

Does this work-in-progress presently apply to the night sky as well?

[scottb613]

Hi Folks,

Just for a brightness reference - this is how I normally run my sim - "Clouds01" blanked - the ORTS brightness is set at 140 - and - I'm using ReShade. It's killing me to test with the Unstable Version as it doesn't look anywhere near this good without ReShade.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51864665243_1bc601d99c_o.png


I did look at Dawn/Dusk yesterday - which I seldom do because it looks so bad - and the sun is pretty large. Also - I didn't see the normal unnatural saturated pink/red color that we used to see - I don't know if this has changed?


Regards,
Scott

[railguy]

Please accept my thanks for looking into improving the skydomes, etc. For me, this has been probably one of the biggest shortcomings of the otherwise wonderful OpenRails.

Also, just out of curiosity, Scott, what route is that in your screenie above? I really like how it looks, especially the water. Conn River maybe?

[scottb613]

railguy, on 04 January 2023 - 07:24 AM, said:

Also, just out of curiosity, Scott, what route is that in your screenie above? I really like how it looks, especially the water. Conn River maybe?

Hi...

Yep - Paul's wonderful CT River - it's the only route I run anymore. Big New England Steam - at speed - at its finest. I've updated all the TERRTEX, Water, and Foliage to better 1024 textures. Travis's fantastic signals are going in next along with Jovet's animated switch stands.

In the interest of trying to help ORTS be better and move the ball forward - like my Skydome - the Water textures are in both the Elvas and TS File Libraries - as Public Domain. The water base texture started life as a granite countertop advertisement - edited a bit - it looks better in person - as it has flecks of appropriate color beneath the surface that seems to reflect the sunlight. My attempt was to match inland water as I see it here in the Northeast US.

Here's a quick test video of where I spend my time in ORTS - YouTube:
https://youtu.be/dVwVxShVgaI

I plan to upgrade and detail the scenes - much like Randy does - when I get done with the locomotive fleet. LOL - years of work left.

Regards,
Scott

[James Ross]

scottb613, on 02 January 2023 - 03:56 PM, said:

I looked at your first upload - skydome mapping is PERFECT as far as I’m concerned - the skydome with clouds painted on the texture looks so much better. Thank You.

Great, thanks for the feedback!

scottb613, on 02 January 2023 - 03:56 PM, said:

When I tested the Clouds01 in the same version - the mapping appeared different than the previous version - the old versioned seemed better. I only had a few minutes to play with it - I’ll do more testing tomorrow and provide better feedback - as I have to run out. I haven’t looked at the flattened version yet…

scottb613, on 03 January 2023 - 02:57 PM, said:

I've looked at the sky in detail - and your "flattened" dome to display "Clouds01" is much better. It adds more of a perception of overall distance to any given scene.

Okay, that's good to hear. I will continue trying to improve the horizon edge, which might get exposed on some routes at present

scottb613, on 03 January 2023 - 02:57 PM, said:

One thing that's been a minor issue over the years - is we can't blank out the "Clouds01" completely using the [Ctrl] [+] and [-] keys - it's always present. As a result - I think many of us have resorted to using a completely alpha'd out "Clouds01" - as when "Clouds01" is present - it seems to reduce the overall brightness of the sim. When blanked - a bright sunny day seems more like a bright sunny day in the sim. This is what I run 99% of the time.

Interesting, I wasn't aware that it did not go all the way to clear, but you're right; having looked at the code, it's... complicated... and tied into the whole dusk/dawn issues, but I have managed to provide a quick fix in Unstable Version U2023.01.04-2136 - hopefully that helps until we can fix the dusk/dawn issues

scottb613, on 03 January 2023 - 02:57 PM, said:

I've messed with "Clouds01" a bunch today and tried a number of different variations - and nothing I can do with Clouds01 seems to actually improve the look of the sky over what I can with Terragen (ray traced clouds) alone. Granted "Clouds01" adds movement and is needed if we ever want to see dynamic weather. If dynamic weather is a goal - we'd need a better system for handling "Cloud01" textures or multiple textures to implement realistic transitions and changing conditions. I realize we can add precip and such now via activities - I'm talking about using different textures or combinations of textures.

We do need to keep the separation of sky and clouds - at least in some form - because we already have dynamic weather (weather file) and, e.g. the clouds need to cover the moon and the moon has to be in front of the sky :)

But I do want more dynamic weather (and more types of weather) which is all going to need more of something - whether that is more cloud-like textures (e.g. thunderstorm clouds) or more meshes (e.g. lightning or just cloud sprites)

scottb613, on 03 January 2023 - 02:57 PM, said:

I've included more test files - linked below. A new version of Clouds01 (no border) - a new 7.5K x 7.5K light Cirrus Terragen Skydome (trying smaller) - and - a clear blue Skydome I've used on my system for years.

Thanks!

Genma Saotome, on 03 January 2023 - 11:36 PM, said:

Feedback: As the sun descends into the western horizon its diameter increases by at least 10x. The waters of the planet don't boil off as expected. :lol2: Hopefully an easy fix.

Does this work-in-progress presently apply to the night sky as well?

The stars in the night sky follow the same dome as the sun and blue sky, so they might look better, but it depends on whether the star textures we currently have are designed as dome textures (think fish-eye)

The sun itself and its "effects", along with the moon, are currently unchanged and will be addressed later

scottb613, on 04 January 2023 - 08:43 AM, said:

In the interest of trying to help ORTS be better and move the ball forward - like my Skydome - the Water textures are in both the Elvas and TS File Libraries - as Public Domain. The water base texture started life as a granite countertop advertisement - edited a bit - it looks better in person - as it has flecks of appropriate color beneath the surface that seems to reflect the sunlight. My attempt was to match inland water as I see it here in the Northeast US.

Thanks very much!

[Weter]

On TS.com there were more sophisticated stardome textures for Northern and Southern hemispheres - accurately reproducing real stars layout.