[Weter]

Interesting note:
the valves can be divided into:
-time type (where adjustment is done by the time, during wich the handle was holden at particular position and then returned to Hold position)
-angle type (where setting depends on the angle on wich the handle been rotated)

This way, the FullService token determins the RATE of BP discharge, but ContiniousService- the FINAL BC PRESSURE
Am I right?
Then, what about Apply token?

[Traindude]

Not sure if this is relevant to this thread but here goes:

One thing I've noticed in OR while using RailDriver is the odd behavior of the Bail Off feature. I am unsure whether this is an OR problem or a RailDriver problem--

When using the bail off feature using the slash (/) key, the action is momentary--press and hold to engage, release to disengage. However, when using the bail feature built in to the independent brake handle on the RailDriver, the bail off feature engages when I move the handle sideways, but doesn't disengage like it's supposed to when I release the handle--I have to press the slash (/) key to disengage it. Is anyone else experiencing this?

[Laci1959]

"bail-off"
It is used in Hungary because it spares the locomotive brake blocks. They are harder to replace than your cars. Of course, this is a function of the braking of the train.

[Weter]

...Plus for preventing wheel-brake engage if Electro-dynamic brakes are turned on. In case of Blended brakes absence.
However this feature IS implemented in MSTS and has dedicated parameter for *.eng-files

[perpetualKid]

Traindude, on 06 November 2020 - 10:01 PM, said:

when using the bail feature built in to the independent brake handle on the RailDriver, the bail off feature engages when I move the handle sideways, but doesn't disengage like it's supposed to when I release the handle--I have to press the slash (/) key to disengage it.

imho this is a bug in OpenRails. If you test one of the OR MG versions which have a different RailDriver implementation, the behavior is more what you'd expect.

[pschlik]

I gotta echo making graduated release a property of the engine, rather than an option in the game menus.


It's just a bit odd that OpenRails forces choosing everything to have graduated brakes or nothing having graduated brakes; this is just a property of the locomotive at use, and more generally, the specific brake mode a locomotive has been set to. There's little good reason to make this a global property.

[Laci1959]

Laci1959, on 07 November 2020 - 03:35 AM, said:

"bail-off"
It is used in Hungary because it spares the locomotive brake blocks. They are harder to replace than your cars. Of course, this is a function of the braking of the train.

There is now a Blended function, just bad, it calculates the electric brake from the brake line pressure instead of using the brake lever position.
We have two types of operation. 1. The old one where the air brake operated the electric brake. The air brake lever also moved the electric brake lever, which operated the electric brakes. If the electric brake lever is reset, the electric brake will stop operating.
2. FLIRT, KISS multiple units where the electric brake actuates the air brake. In this case, the use of the air brake is optional. There is a button on the control lever to turn the air brake off.

[Traindude]

perpetualKid, on 07 November 2020 - 05:58 AM, said:

imho this is a bug in OpenRails. If you test one of the OR MG versions which have a different RailDriver implementation, the behavior is more what you'd expect.

Which version is that? I am using U2020.11.08-2021. I can't seem to find any other version besides the usual stable & unstable versions on the OR website...

[copperpen]

Traindude, on 09 November 2020 - 06:21 AM, said:

Which version is that? I am using U2020.11.08-2021. I can't seem to find any other version besides the usual stable & unstable versions on the OR website...

In the forum called Mongame Migration there is a thread with the title OR NewYear MG. That is where you get the OR MG version from. The download is a zipfile which AFAIK must be unpacked using 7zip. Current version of OR MG is in post #769.

PS. Only update this version from that thread. The normal updater will replace it with the standard OR version/s.

[darwins]

I have tried to survey a variety of brake controllers that might be used in Open Rails and listed them in the attached document.


If you are aware of other types of brake system and brake controllers, please do send me information, preferably in English and I will add them.


Straight air train brake systems such as SME and SMEE are not included in the document as these can not currently be modelled in Open Rails.


The brake tokens that we currently have cover a very wide range of possibilities, but there are four additional tokens (other than overcharge) that we may wish to add:


HOLDING - position on Westinghouse 5-ET, 6-ET and 14-EL brake systems - releases train brakes only, but keeps locomotive and tender brakes applied.


DYNAMIC BRAKE ONLY - this position gives application of dynamic brake only without application of air brake or EP brake


NOTCHED AIR BRAKE - should be made available for mechanical notched train air brake systems such as the Knorr Type C and the Knorr Type D2 - at present thses can only be modelled using TrainBrakesControllerEPApplyStart ideally this could be replaced by TrainBrakesControllerBrakeNotchStart.


SLOW APPLICATION - Slow Service position on the 394 brake controller described by Weter and the Knorr St 125 brake controller. In addition to a new brake token these would also need the definition of a new paramater

TrainBrakesControllerSlowApplicationRate

This could be used in both air brake and vacuum brake systems to provide an alternative 'hook' for AWS applications, which on older locomotives was slower than either full service or emergency braking.

Attached File(s)

•  Brake Controllers.pdf (118K)
  Number of downloads: 1619

[Weter]

Oh, my God: 22 valuable pages!
Darwins, I'm putting my hat off.

Our 334 brake valve of old EMUs looks like a copy of Westinghouse's one:
http://trainsimpack.ucoz.ru/KM/334_1.jpg
As you can see, MRP is painted blue, BP-red.

Quote

Driver’s Valve No. 394
Train brake – automatic air brake has graduated release (?) (but is not self-lapping).
394 do not have graduated release.
395 does (at the EP part),
Both are not self-lapping
Actually has 7 positions, 4 notched
I. Release &BP Charge
Brake pipe connected to Main Reservoir and ER too, thru 1,6mm gicleur-for more slow pressure rising
TrainBrakesControllerOverchargeStart seems good
II. Running (&release)
Brake Pipe pressure controlled by Eq Res - creates and maintains working pressure in brake pipe - releases both train and locomotive brakes.
BP & ER pressures BOTH are controlled by adjustable reducer for feeding and by stabilizer to drop excessive pressure(if any)
Loco brake is released only if 254 valve(independent brake) is at release position.
TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart.
III. Lap without BP feeding
ER and Brake Pipe isolated connected. ER pressure equalizes with BP. Pressure may drop slowly due to leakage.
TrainBrakesControllerHoldLappedStart
IV. Lap with BP feeding (Pressure Maintaining)
Maintains Reduced pressure in brake pipe against leakage.
<token is missed> I would to offer
TrainBrakesControllerSelfLapStart
VA. BP discharging BP in "soft" rate. (Slow Service)
Allows air to escape from brake pipe more slowly than normal service application rate. For preparing triple walves af all cars in long trains for simultaneous actuating, avoiding wave-like brakes applying, which could stress couplers "Soft" rate of discharge.
Not currently available in OR
V. Service
Allows air to escape slowly from brake pipe at normal service application rate.
TrainBrakesControllerFullServiceStart
VI Emergency
Rapidly releases all air from brake pipe.
TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart

Maybe additional corrections are needed, but goodnight at this time

[steamer_ctn]

darwins, on 09 November 2020 - 07:28 AM, said:

I have tried to survey a variety of brake controllers that might be used in Open Rails and listed them in the attached document.

Darwin, this is an excellent summary, and no doubt will be a useful reference document.

Just to confirm our understanding.

Is each existing brake token unique in its functionality, and therefore where it is used in a different brake configuration, the expectation would be that it would perform in exactly the same way?

In other words we are not expecting a brake token to behave slightly differently depending upon which brake configuration it is used in. Is this correct?

Thanks for your work on this.

[darwins]

steamer_ctn, on 09 November 2020 - 10:07 PM, said:

Darwin, this is an excellent summary, and no doubt will be a useful reference document.

Just to confirm our understanding.

Is each existing brake token unique in its functionality, and therefore where it is used in a different brake configuration, the expectation would be that it would perform in exactly the same way?

In other words we are not expecting a brake token to behave slightly differently depending upon which brake configuration it is used in. Is this correct?

Thanks for your work on this.

Yes - as far as I can tell so far. If anything there may be the reverse problem of two or more brake tokens possibly giving identical performance. As Weter has pointed out there is no obvious difference between TrainBrakesControllerFullServiceStart and TrainBrakesControllerApplyStart [edit - TrainBrakesControllerFullServiceStart - reduces ATP pressure at the service rate until the full service brake pipe pressure is reached / TrainBrakesControllerApplyStart - continues to reduce pressure at the service rate until the brake pipe pressure is zero], also from a simulator point of view it seems that TrainBrakesControllerNeutralHandleOffStart and TrainBrakesControllerSelfLapStart and TrainBrakesControllerRunningStart can be interchanged - although there is obviously a difference in real life function and a need to have different notches on some controllers.
It is still a work in progress because (i) I can not test the overcharge function until it appears in an unstable version (ii) I am hoping for input from other countries to know if there is anything significantly different - Spain, Italy, France, India, Japan - in particular may have variations - although a lot of Japanese stuff is now based on the SME / SMEE framework which is not yet possible in OR. The bottom line seems to be with one or two more tokens that most things will be possible.


I am waiting for the overcharge function to appear in the unstable version.

[Edit - although TrainBrakesControllerNeutralHandleOffStart is behaving the same as TrainBrakesControllerSelfLapStart and TrainBrakesControllerRunningStart - this does not seem correct - the brake descriptions say all ports closed for neutral - so ATP pressure should fall due to leakage and therefore TrainBrakesControllerNeutralHandleOffStart should behave the same as TrainBrakesControllerHoldLappedStart.]

[Weter]

@ Darwins:
1. is list of Engine (independent) Brake Controllers ( or addition to previous list) planned?
2. what ATP means (train pipe A, but what is "A"?)

Quote

we are not expecting a brake token to behave slightly differently depending upon which brake configuration it is used in. Is this correct?

I think, the ideal situation, is when the tokens itself are similar, and differences(if needed) are referenced by separate parameters-as we have now with, for example, the set of pressure differences rates.

[darwins]

I could add engine brake controllers - some are included in the list where they are part of a brake system - generally they are simpler than train brakes and it seems unlikely that additional tokens will be needed to model them.

If anyone has any interesting examples I will be happy to look at them.
Sorry, also need to explain abbreviations - ATP = air train pipe