[atsf37l]

Oh yeah, that makes lots of sense. Sort of like the description of the Turbo Encabulator.

As one mathematically challenged, I like the tables...... :lol: :bigboss:

[R H Steele]

http://www.elvastower.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif

[Dogbert]

All the maths used to go right over my head, when i was an apprentice and then a fitter.

Just give me a massive spanner and a huge hammer and i was happy. :rofl2: :rofl2:

You know the saying "donkeys years" in San Diego then, atsf37l :good2:

Mike.

[darwins]

Yes. You can set the maximum speed for a consist using the consist file. (In meters per second as you did in MSTS.)
Yes. You can specify a rate for acceleration and deceleration in the consist file. (As you did in MSTS as a % of maximum acceleration whatever that is.)
Using the two together you could arrange for AI traffic to run at the correct speed and keep timetable time over most sections of a route in an MSTS activity.

I was of the opinion that OpenRails aimed to improve upon the way things were done in MSTS and not to simply replicate them. Hence the original post suggesting the possibility to specify maximum permissible speeds for locomotives and rolling stock in mph or km/h in eng and wag files rather than in m/s in consist files.
Thinking here that if you specify a maximum speed in a consist file and attach a vehicle that is not allowed to operate at that speed it has not effect on the maximum permitted speed of the consist.
At present timetable editor gives us some measure of control over acceleration, although perhaps less than MSTS did in consist files. I need to catch up with recent developments there as I am way behind.
I assume it would be possible in time table editor to specify different maximum speeds when vehicles were attached or detached - provided that each time the train became a new train in a new column.
When in timetable mode do the values in consist files have any effect on performance?

[atsf37l]

Dogbert, on 23 February 2020 - 09:42 AM, said:

All the maths used to go right over my head, when i was an apprentice and then a fitter.

Just give me a massive spanner and a huge hammer and i was happy. :rofl2: :rofl2:

You know the saying "donkeys years" in San Diego then, atsf37l :good2:

Mike.

And don't forget, if one drop of oil is good 10 is better. Yup, I was married to a Brit once, God rest her. And Bob's your uncle.

[Dogbert]

atsf37l, on 23 February 2020 - 02:35 PM, said:

And don't forget, if one drop of oil is good 10 is better. Yup, I was married to a Brit once, God rest her. And Bob's your uncle.

Hahahahahahahaha, oh yes most definitely.

Nice one and yes Bob is your uncle, if he is a relative. :lol2:

Mike.

[btrs]

Want to revive this topic after I saw some strange behavior..

I was running the following train consist:

* FCS 101 044 (DB 101, Halycon Fahrzeugpaket and other German add-ons)
* 8 FCS IC-Wagen (Intercity cars, also Halycon Fahrzeugpaket)

Route used was ProTrain 38 Hannover-Kassel, but I ran an explore route activity between Göttingen and Kassel.
On the high speed-section, which is used by the train's set path, the maximum line speed is 250 km/h.
The locomotive's maximum permitted speed is 220 km/h.

However, the passenger cars maximum permitted speed is 200 km/h, so the actual speed limit should have been 200 km/h.
In reality, it was the speed limit of the locomotive (220 km/h) that was set as speed limit.

I've checked and none of the IC-cars have a line MaxVelocity (200 kmh). I don't know if this is valid for MSTS in wag-files, so is it invalid or ignored for OR as well ?

Eventually, the behavior I want OR to implement is that the lowest of all MaxVelocity (both eng and wag) values is taken into account as the set speed limit.
Such a practice is common in real railways: let's take the consist of the following EuroNight train in 2018:
https://www.vagonweb...20Imre&rok=2018

* The DB 120 as loco has a maximum speed of 200 km/h
* The 5 first (Croatian Railways) coaches have a maximum speed of 160 km/h
* All other coaches have a maximum speed of 200 km/h

If I now want to simulate this in OR and I run it on a route with a maximum line speed of 200 km/h (or higher), the actual speed limit of the train should be limited to 160 km/h, since the 5 Croatian coaches are restricting the total train's maximum speed to 160 km/h.
So how do I enforce OR to do this ? Some diagonal reading from the posts above suggests that the consist file also has a MaxVelocity line, and if a train should have a lower speed than its engine's maximum speed it should be set there. Is this the right behavior or does OR also ignore this value ?

[Csantucci]

OR, like MSTS, does not have a feature to set the max speed of the individual car. It takes however in consideration the max speed of the consist (MaxVelocity).

[darwins]

My understanding is

MaxVelocity in eng files only affects performance of MSTS files and does not set a speed limit as such.
MaxVelocity in wag files is not currently valid in OR.

The only valid way to set a speed limit in OR is using the consist file in activity mode and explore mode, or using an equivalent in the timetable column in timetable mode.
Attaching or detaching vehicles does not change the speed limit. (Nor in activity mode can you set a speed limit for a light engine, which will be lower than the speed limit for a train it will subsequently pull.)
In timetable mode if attaching or detaching changes the speed limit for the train then it needs to form a new train in a new column.

[steved]

Sound to me like this would be covered in the special instructions or timetable.
That would make it the responsibility of the engineer and conductor to know the speed limit of their train based on the consist.
Trackside speed limit signs and signal aspects will tell you the track speed permitted, the paperwork will tell you how fast you can go.
How do you simulate that.

Steve

[darwins]

Quote

Sound to me like this would be covered in the special instructions or timetable.
That would make it the responsibility of the engineer and conductor to know the speed limit of their train based on the consist.
Trackside speed limit signs and signal aspects will tell you the track speed permitted, the paperwork will tell you how fast you can go.
How do you simulate that.

The answer is that we have the F4 HuD to simulate that (plus sometimes written instructions in activities). F4 and F5 is our paperwork and our route knowledge and our train knowledge.

If I have a 90 mph locomotive and a set of 100 mph coaches running on a 110 mph route, I want the F4 HuD to display 90 mph as the permitted maximum speed.If I then attach a van that has a maximum permitted speed of 45 mph to the same train the F4 HuD should change to display 45 mph.
At the present this is impossible as MaxVelocity for the F4 HuD comes only from MaxVelocity in the .con file (or the top of the column in a time table file).

[steved]

If the sim gets it's speed limit from the .con file why wouldn't the correct speed be in there?
That would work up until the point when you set out that crane that's been holding you to 20mph, then you can go track speed.
Seems ORTS would have to scan the .wags and .engs and keep track of the MaxVelocity allowed.
I'm asking because I'm learning, just like everyone else.
Thanks
Steve

[darwins]

I have dozens of .con files with incorrect maximum speeds in them.

Why?

Because either myself or some other person who assembled the consist could not be bothered to put the correct speed in!

Probably more likely that people would enter the correct data when creating locos, carriages and wagons - but then again may be not.


OR is in any case constantly scanning the wag files in the player train for a lot of information - this is not likely to be very heavy on computing power.

To be genuinely realistic there might need to be other rules added for the maximum speed for consists - either player or AI. For example locomotives when running light engine are often required to run at lower speeds when they would when pulling a train - usually I believe for reasons of fuel economy.

On my part I am putting out a suggestion for improvement (over what we had in MSTS). There might be better suggestions for improvement out there. Keep things the same because it works really well is a good answer too. I am bit disappointed with keep things the same because that is the way they are though.

[atsf37l]

darwins, on 02 May 2020 - 12:14 PM, said:

My understanding is

MaxVelocity in eng files only affects performance of MSTS files and does not set a speed limit as such.
MaxVelocity in wag files is not currently valid in OR.

The only valid way to set a speed limit in OR is using the consist file in activity mode and explore mode, or using an equivalent in the timetable column in timetable mode.
Attaching or detaching vehicles does not change the speed limit. (Nor in activity mode can you set a speed limit for a light engine, which will be lower than the speed limit for a train it will subsequently pull.)
In timetable mode if attaching or detaching changes the speed limit for the train then it needs to form a new train in a new column.

I would disagree. MaxVelocity does indeed set the speed limit for the particular locomotive. Where is this useful? Let's say I'm running a Santa Fe 3700 Class 4-8-2 on the "Scout" out of Winslow, Arizona. In real life, 3700-3750 had a system wide speed limit of 70 MPH. I picked up my engine on the ready track at Winslow, hooked up to a 'powerless' consist at the depot and headed off for Gallup, New Mexico on track which has a speed limit of 90 MPH. The powerless consist should have a zeroed out MaxVelocity statement, because I can hook a switch engine or a big high-speed 4-8-4 or a brace of EMD FT's to the consist. If the MaxVelocity statement of 70 MPH is not in the .eng file on my 3700 then when I switch control to OR's Autopilot the whole shootin' match jumps to 90 MPH!

With the MaxVelocity in the .eng file set at 70MPH the loco will top out around 69.8 regardless of the 90 MPH track speed.

Same can be said for freight operations where the track speed is set for the Super Chief but my 3160 class Mikes with 63" drivers should roll along at a top speed of around 45 MPH. Activities which start off as light engines need MaxVelocity to set a reasonable speed for freight operations using player control or Autopilot.

Thus my 2 cents. :bigboss:

[cr-stagg]

Let me offer some comments Concerning the MaxVelocity Field in Consists files. Some background. I worked on the ConBuilder team from version 1.8.1 through version 6.2.3. ConBuilder's code was originally developed Mr. Carlos Gomes and he wrote it to mimic MSTS. It did in most ways except for the MaxVelocity parameters in Consist files. Carlos coded ConBuilder to enter the default values of ( 40.0 and 1.0000 ), but he also provided a tool for the user to enter the values and when the CON file was saved either the default or the user's values were saved in the file.

Sometime after Carlos left the ConBuilder team and shortly before it became payware I began working with the MSTS CE to reverse engineer how the MSTS CE calculated the two values. Then I developed the code specifications so that ConBuilder would calculate the values and enter them in the file when the CON file was saved. Also a recalculation was implemented when an existing CON file was edited and saved.

The MaxVelocity value is the MaxVelocity from the ENG file of the lead engine in the consist in meters per second and the second is a factor for acceleration. I will not reveal what the logic and calculations are used for the acceleration factor as it is much more complicated and could be considered proprietary to ConBuilder; and because this is a discussion of velocity and speed limits not acceleration.

Also during this reverse engineering research, it was found/confirmed that MSTS (the Sim) does not use the MaxVelocity values from the consist file for the Player consist physics, but does use them for the Traffic (AI) consists. How ORTS uses (if it even does use) the MaxVelocity factor values from CON file I do not know. Probably 5 years ago or more I asked the developers that question and was told ORTS does not use those values but calculates the capability of a consist by examining the components. That makes sense: as player consists can change during an activity and any traffic consist can become the player consist. However, the ORTS manual in section 10.12 seems to indicate otherwise. Perhaps it was later decided to use the values.

There was a comment in this thread about "wagon MaxVelocity". Kuju/Microsoft did provide some documentation on ENG and Wag files and distributed them with the MSTS CDs. That document defined MaxVelocity within the Engine Section. ENG files are composted of a Wagon section and an Engine section. WAG files only have Wagon sections. There is not an Engine section in WAG files. Therefore, there are no MaxVelocity parameters in WAG files. If ORTS were to have a capability to utilize the parameter for wagons, then it would need to be done as an "ORTSMaxVelocity".

Throughout this thread there seem to be a misunderstanding of definition of terms and an equating of Maximum Velocity and Speed Limit. Also, section 10.12.3 in the ORTS Manual sees to suffer the same malady. It also appears that the author of this section thinks that the values of the MaxVelocity parameter in CON files are actual values as in MPH or m/s/s instead of factors.
Maximum Velocity describes a physical capability. Speed Limit is and arbitrary restriction imposed by administrative means. Example I could drive my car down the street in front of my house at 60mph or faster, but the city has imposed a Speed Limit of 25mph. The MaxVelocity parameter in ENG files given in MPH or KPH is the physical capability of the locomotive based on many factors. It is generally ascertained from manufacture's documentation. MaxVelocity physical capability of wagons may have been documented or specified by their manufacturer, but there is not a Parameter for them in WAG files. Equating these numbers to Speed Limits is nonsense.
While looking at the manual I notice a comment about ORTS applying an efficiency factor to the acceleration value in the CON file MaxVelocity. My reverse engineering determined that the MSTS CE applied an 80% efficiency to the acceleration value when it was calculated. ConBuilder’s code does this also. So if another 80% is applied then Traffic consists in ORTS would accelerate 80% slower than the same consist in MSTS.

One last comment about ConBuilder concerning the version 2.4.9 which is in the TS library here. It is the last free ware version and still inserts the default ( 40.0 1.000 ) values in CON files.