[eugenR]

If I start an activity or an explorer-route with the original MSTS Engine Acela HHP-8, the Trainbrake is applied by about 60%.
15 seconds after the activity-start, the Brake-Cylinders loose here pressure and the engine here brakeforce.
The Brake lever stay all-time at the same position!

If I release the Trainbrake and apply it again, after 15 seconds the same will happens.

Picture 1 after start of the activity:

Picture 2 shows the manometer in Zero-Position after the Brake-Cylinders have loose here pressure:



The problem exist since the Release X3407
This release was produced by Disc.
I have this Problem with the original MSTS *.eng file.

[hroch]

Hello,
Parameter DynamicBrakeHasAutoBailOff( 1 ) not working correctly. In real lokomotives worked only when the dynamic brake work.

If the engineer applies brake, the pressure in the brake pipe goes down e.g. from 5 to 4.7 bar. As soon as the dynamic brake starts working the pressure in the brake cylinder goes down to 0 bar.

If he applies brakes again from 4.7 to 4.3 bar, the pressure in the brake cylinder doesn't increase anymore. It stays on 0 bar. This doesn´t work corretly in OR. Because the pressure in the brake cylinder grows up and then goes down.

At speeds when the dynamic brake stops working (according to dynamic brake curve) the pressure in the brake cylinder grows according to the pressure in the brake pipe. This doesn´t work in OR.

I describe a system where when the dynamic brake fades due to low or high speeds, the pneumatic brake does not replace dynamic brake.

[eugenR]

I have now made a Bug-report:
https://bugs.launchp...or/+bug/1629635

[Serana]

hroch, on 29 September 2016 - 12:04 AM, said:

Hello,
Parameter DynamicBrakeHasAutoBailOff( 1 ) not working correctly. In real lokomotives worked only when the dynamic brake work.

If the engineer applies brake, the pressure in the brake pipe goes down e.g. from 5 to 4.7 bar. As soon as the dynamic brake starts working the pressure in the brake cylinder goes down to 0 bar.

If he applies brakes again from 4.7 to 4.3 bar, the pressure in the brake cylinder doesn't increase anymore. It stays on 0 bar. This doesn´t work corretly in OR. Because the pressure in the brake cylinder grows up and then goes down.

At speeds when the dynamic brake stops working (according to dynamic brake curve) the pressure in the brake cylinder grows according to the pressure in the brake pipe. This doesn´t work in OR.

I describe a system where when the dynamic brake fades due to low or high speeds, the pneumatic brake does not replace dynamic brake.

Hello,

I truely don't know why you are talking about this not implemented parameter in this bug report.
This is not related at all !
Since it is not implemented, it has stricly no impact on what's not working correctly currently.

[eugenR]

Serana, on 02 October 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Hello,

I truely don't know why you are talking about this not implemented parameter in this bug report.
This is not related at all !
Since it is not implemented, it has stricly no impact on what's not working correctly currently.

There must exist an implementation, because if I set this parameter to ( 0 ) the engine change the behavior.
The tainbrake works as usual!

Regards
EugenR

[hroch]

Serana, on 02 October 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Since it is not implemented, it has stricly no impact on what's not working correctly currently.

Hello,
Really?

Serana, on 02 October 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

I truely don't know why you are talking about this not implemented parameter in this bug report.

Because this is related.

[eugenR]

Now I have detect the behavior more exact:

If I wait after Activity-start until the brake-cylinders loose here pressure, then I release the trainbrake and start to drive, then also during the drive the cylinders loose here pressure, 10s after applying the trainbrake. and there is now brakeforce, as described in post #1

But:
If I start quick before the cylinders has loose the first time the pressure, I DOEN'T HAVE BRAKE-PROBLEMS during driving with this Engine!

[disc]

That's simply the DynamicBrakeHasAutoBailOff( 1 )
Since the blended braking is implemented, the HHP-8 dynamic brake delay is set to 15 seconds or something. As soon as the dynamic brake is on, the autobailoff bails off the locomotive brakes.
Before because the blended braking wasn't implemented, the dynamic brake never activated, just like the autobailoff.

[eugenR]

disc, on 04 October 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

That's simply the DynamicBrakeHasAutoBailOff( 1 )

Yes, O.K.
But the autobailoff is already activated at the STANDING engine (zero speed) at the begin of the activity?
There is also the following parameter in the original *.eng File
DynamicBrakesMinUsableSpeed( 5 ). Should this autobailoff not only work, if the engine has a speed over this parameter?
Also the dynamic brake is staying on at the standing engine (against the above parameter), it switch only off, if I turn back the brake lever.

During driving, the dynamic brake doesn't switch of at lower speed under the valor in this parameter.
It release only by turning back the brakelever.

And by the way:
Can you activate the display of the Dynamic brake of the Acela HHP-8 in the HUD F5?

Thank you
EugenR

[Serana]

hroch, on 03 October 2016 - 12:33 AM, said:

Hello,
Really?

Because this is related.

I wasn't looking at the right location in the source code. I found where it's used and I think the implementation is a bit weird. I'll take a look at it after work.

[eugenR]

Serana, on 06 October 2016 - 03:57 AM, said:

I wasn't looking at the right location in the source code. I found where it's used and I think the implementation is a bit weird. I'll take a look at it after work.

Hello,
I have seen, the Problem with Standard MSTS-Engine exist again (since X3407), it is loosing all Trainbrake-Force 10s after activating the trainbrake, because in the Original-MSTS *.eng-File the Parameter DynamicBrakeHasAutoBailOff( 1 ) is set. If the Engine is used without cars, there is no possibility to stop the engine, other ways the trainbrakes of the cars are helping.

Can you please help to bring back the behavior of this engine in OpenRails from before X3407 and from MSTS?
To reset the Parameter DynamicBrakeHasAutoBailOff( 1 ) can help me, but all the user of this MSTS-Engine with OpenRails will only be annoyed and will normaly not realize what is the problem and can not complain it here!

https://bugs.launchp...or/+bug/1629635

Regards
EugenR

PS: if a code-Modification of the dynamic brake in OpenRails will be too complex, can you perhaps reset this Parameter DynamicBrakeHasAutoBailOff( 1 ) by the option "correct questionable braking parameters", then I think this function was also not working in MSTS?

[Csantucci]

The attached patch for x.3926 avoids the brake cylinder release at 0 speed and in general when DynamicBrakeForce is equal to 0 due to the DynamicBrakeForceCurves, corrects an error I found in generating the DynamicBrakeForceCurves and considers DynamicBrakesEffectAtMaximumFadeOut, which wasn't considered up to now. However I'm still not happy with the braking behaviour of the HHP8 (which by the way has in its .eng file both DynamicBrakesMaximumEffectiveSpeed and DynamicBrakesFadingSpeed at the same value, while the maximum value of the dynamic brake force should be between those two speeds).
 Orts.Simulation.dll.zip (462.29K)
Number of downloads: 326

The question is: what has been implemented, as far as I can see, is that either the air brake or the dynamic brake are active. But what if the dynamic brake force isn't enough? Shouldn't in this case both brakes be active at the same time? Or did I oversee something?

[hroch]

Hello,

Your patch correctly work only for twin pipe. For sigle pipe, when dynamic brake stops working, brake cylinder is not filled up air.
There are two systems:

1.
When the dynamic brake fades due to low or high speeds, the pneumatic brake does not replace dynamic brake (without complementary brake, I do not know how to say it correctly in technical English).
https://www.youtube....h?v=TZRTM5ZjUwY time 12:20-13:05


gauge no.1
black needle: is pressure of pressure transducer ( changes the pressure on the voltage). In OR virtual bottle. He is always filled when the enginer use train brake controller or dynamic brake controller. Value missing in HUD and does no exist parameter in CVF file for it.
red needle: is pressure of brake cylinder.

gaude no.2
black needle: is pressure of brake pipe
red needle: is pressure of main reservoir

gaudes no.3
ammeters

Missing conditions/commands if the dynamic brake is to operate in the position of the emergency brake or not. If it works how much. The size of dynamic force is limited to avoid brake skid, because the air brake works fully. At locomotive in the video , the dynamic brake is not work in the emergency position.

2.
When the dynamic brake fades due to low or high speeds, the pneumatic brake does replace dynamic brake (complementary brake). This is according to the braking force requirement. Example: The driver has a requirement to 50kN the brake force. The locomotive performs it, the complementary brake do not work. If not, brake cylinder is filled up air. I don't know value of the pressure. I do not know the details. Every locomotive it has a different.

[eugenR]

hroch, on 22 August 2017 - 04:34 AM, said:

Hello,

Your patch correctly work only for twin pipe. For sigle pipe, when dynamic brake stops working, brake cylinder is not filled up air.

Sorry, but if I modify the *.eng-File of the Acela HHP-8 to single_pipe Brake, I can't see a faulty behavior?
after switch back from dynamic to trainbrake under 5 MPS the instrument and the Window F5 Brake-Information is showing pressure in the brake cylinder.

regards
Eugen R

[hroch]

https://youtu.be/6Ua7T_GRjCM
Sigle pipe, when dynamic brake stops working, brake cylinder is not filled up air. If he applies brakes again from, the pressure in the brake cylinder doesn't increase anymore. It stays on 0 bar. This doesn´t work corretly in OR. Because the pressure in the brake cylinder grows up and then goes down. Time 0:55s.

https://youtu.be/HdoIpg07ulE
The basic HUD does not correctly display the pressure data. When the individual locomotive BC shows the pressure in the brake cylinder of the locomotive. That OK (first video). When the locomotive with wagons first BC shows the pressure in the brake cylinder of the first wagon. It's not right. It's confusing.