[steamer_ctn]

ATW, on 30 September 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

It's all up to you to choose from 1 or more as discipline action ideas for poor train handling without derailing as for now being lucky.

Ok, I will add it to my list of things to consider.

Genma Saotome, on 30 September 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

Question: Is the curve speed limit effect based on the tightest curve beneath any portion of the train or only the most recent curve entered?

Curve speed is calculated real-time based upon the curve that the car is on, so in principle it should be the tightest curve beneath any portion of the train.

[ATW]

That's nice to hear that you may be considering it... Thanks!

It is better than not having any disciplines for mis handling than just getting away with it.

Question: Is there any minimum % in code that this notification pops up since even on slight slow speeds even on tangent track I get the notification too many times than before? What I would prefer an mean; is there a minimum percentage the notification warns us of impact... you know same as how wheel slip warnings occur at or above %60 before %100 an above means severe slipping? I would prefer the option under Simulation tab to choose a percentage at which I get the warning before actual %100 for a car to overturn instead of warnings appearing easily like at %25 curve speed limits when instead I can set priority to warn me that I'm going too fast for a curve %80 chance before %100+ of over turning is reached to actually happen.

Would it be considered for these other Curve or even tangent discipline ideas to be implemented for same causes in air hose disconnected an lucky no derailed cars to see instead of just curve speed:

Pulling Notification: "You are pulling too hard for this curve, your train may string line. Ease off the power." At %100 or above "Your train stringlined." Caused by curve friction, car friction, ballance an force limits exceeded.

Pushing/Bunching Notification: "You are pushing/bunching too hard on your train on this curve, your train may jackknife. Ease off the brakes or power. At %100 or above "Your train has jackknifed." Caused by coupling too fast/hard or better yet exceeding the 2nd number in "Break( 0 0 ) in coupler sections or derailbuffer forces of a given car wag physics.

Remember in this, I'm not asking for visual derailing but for disciplines of probable causes from mis handling operations, train makeup or car physic that causes an emergency from hose separation instead of derailing.

[Mike B]

I kind of like those kind of notifications. Would make the curve speed limit warnings useful as a learning tool, perhaps in a student engineer mode or something like that. The current curve limit warning seems to occur well below (5-10, sometimes 15 mph) the posted speed limit for curves, and otherwise at odd times and places. It does seem to be affected by how hard I'm pulling, though, so perhaps the stringlining issue is hidden behind the generic message, but as it is now I can't tell.

Again, I think this is a worthwhile addition for a learning mode. More information is needed in the messages, though; "slow down" could in fact trigger derailment if the issue is too much dynamic brake, for instance, threatening jackknife. The added information about what's going on would greatly assist in deciding what exactly to do, and how much of it.

I've seen in other fora that many if not most railroads require use of both air and dynamic brakes if more than around 50% dynamic is required to hold speed; the object among other things is have enough reserve braking to avoid runaway if the one of the systems fails. That could also be a useful note/message/warning in a learning mode. Unfortunately, standard MSTS air brakes are too effective, so even a minimum set will often stop a train without dynamics even on a steep grade, making blending the brakes a little funky. Is there something standardized that can be applied to the braking in .wag files, similar to Bob B's standard diesel physics, that could make the brakes work more realistically?

[steamer_ctn]

Thanks for the reply.

ATW, on 07 October 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

Question: Is there any minimum % in code that this notification pops up since even on slight slow speeds even on tangent track I get the notification too many times than before? What I would prefer an mean; is there a minimum percentage the notification warns us of impact... you know same as how wheel slip warnings occur at or above %60 before %100 an above means severe slipping? I would prefer the option under Simulation tab to choose a percentage at which I get the warning before actual %100 for a car to overturn instead of warnings appearing easily like at %25 curve speed limits when instead I can set priority to warn me that I'm going too fast for a curve %80 chance before %100+ of over turning is reached to actually happen.

.........................

Remember in this, I'm not asking for visual derailing but for disciplines of probable causes from mis handling operations, train makeup or car physic that causes an emergency from hose separation instead of derailing.

I am a little uncertain as to what you are suggesting.

As described on the site referred to in the first post in this thread, there are three speed limits when going around a curve to be mindful of:

• Equilibrium Speed - maximum speed around a curve which ensures that the load of the wagon is balanced across all the wheels, and that the forces between the wheels and track are equal. Mainly influenced by track superelevation.
• Unbalanced Speed - maximum speed around a curve which allows a certain amount of load unbalance between the wheels and the track. Typically the amount of unbalance is determined by the of the amount of unbalanced superelevation (cant deficiency) is allowable.
• Critical Speed - the speed at which the rolling stock is likely to overturn. Mostly impacted by the Centre of Gravity.

Currently OR alarms on the last two items above, as the first one is not considered critical event, though it may contribute to increased wear on bogies, wheels, etc.

In effect, whilst the normal warning that most people will get is for the unbalanced speed, it acts as "pre-warning" for the critical or overturning speed. Thus I don't believe that there is value in putting in extra warning messages in at values less then the current unbalanced speed warning.

To get a critical speed warning would require a significant train speed, so I am uncertain as to how often a player will get this type of warning.

There maybebenefit in putting in a "penalty", such as a broken air hose if the critical speed warning is reached, but this would require positive support from the forums.

Mike B, on 07 October 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

I kind of like those kind of notifications. Would make the curve speed limit warnings useful as a learning tool, perhaps in a student engineer mode or something like that. The current curve limit warning seems to occur well below (5-10, sometimes 15 mph) the posted speed limit for curves, and otherwise at odd times and places. It does seem to be affected by how hard I'm pulling, though, so perhaps the stringlining issue is hidden behind the generic message, but as it is now I can't tell.

The main purpose of the warning message for the unbalanced speed is designed as a "useful learning tool", as trains should not exceed this speed around the curve.

If the curve speed warning message is occurring at speeds well below the "advertised" curve speed limit (as opposed to the route speed), then maybe the WAG and ENG files need to be checked to ensure that they are correctly setup.Refer to the first post.

[ATW]

steamer_ctn, on 08 October 2015 - 08:13 PM, said:

Thanks for the reply.


I am a little uncertain as to what you are suggesting.

As described on the site referred to in the first post in this thread, there are three speed limits when going around a curve to be mindful of:

• Equilibrium Speed - maximum speed around a curve which ensures that the load of the wagon is balanced across all the wheels, and that the forces between the wheels and track are equal. Mainly influenced by track superelevation.
• Unbalanced Speed - maximum speed around a curve which allows a certain amount of load unbalance between the wheels and the track. Typically the amount of unbalance is determined by the of the amount of unbalanced superelevation (cant deficiency) is allowable.
• Critical Speed - the speed at which the rolling stock is likely to overturn. Mostly impacted by the Centre of Gravity.

Currently OR alarms on the last two items above, as the first one is not considered critical event, though it may contribute to increased wear on bogies, wheels, etc.

In effect, whilst the normal warning that most people will get is for the unbalanced speed, it acts as "pre-warning" for the critical or overturning speed. Thus I don't believe that there is value in putting in extra warning messages in at values less then the current unbalanced speed warning.

To get a critical speed warning would require a significant train speed, so I am uncertain as to how often a player will get this type of warning.

There maybebenefit in putting in a "penalty", such as a broken air hose if the critical speed warning is reached, but this would require positive support from the forums.

The first thing I'm suggesting related to all curve limit an future notifications popping up even on poor low speed, tangent, not too tight curves well under posted speed limits is the option to set custom chosen percentage for notifications to pop up from easily scaring us in the following template example from a current feature of information:

F5 Extended HUD Force: For the controlling locomotive information showing driving output force, how much force is put to the rail based on conditions etc... there comes the wheel slip %... notification of wheel slip warning happens on conditions where ORTS team decided to pop a Yellow warning HUD notification "Wheel Slip Warning" when are units started slipping at 60% or above, but at 59% or less everything is fine with no notifications, but when slipping was at the critical rate an over 100% we get in red the "Wheel Slip" notification of whats happening an the % rate in Force Info HUD shows how much are wheels are spinning out of control from are trains stopped or moving speed.

My Suggestion: Make it optional for us to set a desired % at which a curve unbalance notification warning pops up like it does for a certain wag car in the train entering a curves limits where say one of my cars physics in train is more likely to tip over going around curve reaching an warning me at it's percent stage I set like for example the "Wheel Slip Warning" which pops up set at 60% or more for warning, 95% or more critical for hose separation, a severe limit 100% or more your in trouble by affected cars if enough are the weakest link even decoupling.

You will get less topics from people getting annoyed at going deep low under speed limits by plenty if one sets their own warning percent target in options for speed curve dependent notifications that want discipline but no notifications (Checked an set at 100% or more for no warnings but severe action notifications of overturning, car hose separation, possible coupler limits exceeded), for very close call (warning notifications set to warn if a part of train/car is exceeding balance limits by 85% from reaching 100% an impact.) or just set to current default which I interpret rate low when it comes to cars with no additional tweaked balance options in train (minimum from impact of overturning warning default feels like at very slow speeds I'm exceeding unbalance speed limits by 15% chance from 100% left or right over turning at low speed an condition of handling). Or bogie springy suspension limits needs implementing an vibrations need tweaking for us to see the impacts of wobbling on track transition conditions where wobble left/right exceeding suspension spring capacity is over exceeding right or left by 50% or more.

Or just plain an simple have option for checking on/off Equilibrium Speed, Unbalanced Speed warning notifications of "your train may derail" when it really hasn't for Pro's not being students with notifications like an engineer training warning you an instead try to figure truth on sudden actions being too late where if we really wasn't exceeding a speed limit its not are fault but a wag/eng physics or track limit fault.

steamer_ctn, on 08 October 2015 - 08:13 PM, said:

The main purpose of the warning message for the unbalanced speed is designed as a "useful learning tool", as trains should not exceed this speed around the curve.

If the curve speed warning message is occurring at speeds well below the "advertised" curve speed limit (as opposed to the route speed), then maybe the WAG and ENG files need to be checked to ensure that they are correctly setup.Refer to the first post.

What about future notifications an disciplines penalty's of mis handling like I mentioned related to run in force limits, curve pulling/pushing limits related to power/braking deceleration/acceleration?

[Genma Saotome]

Peter, I had a "Your train has overturned message" last night -- a correct message, something weird about 2X starting speed for the activity -- and having noted the problem I realized the train was continuing on its merry way, throwing out "Your train has overturned message" for every car as it entered the too tight turn.

This got me thinking... since you know which car you are checking when you generate the overturned message, could you uncouple it and sever the trainline? That would cause everything to go into emergency, a more realistic situation than just continuing as-if nothing at happened. If this is too severe for all occurrences then perhaps an option to enable/disable the new feature.

[ATW]

Yay!! someone that agrees an wants what I been giving plenty of details about here. Hose separation of affected cars overturning, bunched too hard to jackknife and accelerated through a curve too much... no crash simulation animation needed.

[steamer_ctn]

I have had a look at the code, and I believe that I can easily implement some penalties using a combination of either or both of the following functions:

i) Brake hose breaks - this will stop the train. To restart the train the brake hose will need to be reconnected.

ii) Cars uncouple - this will also stop the train.

There are currently two user selection options that can be used to control whether these events happen, and these are the following menu options on the "Simulation TAB":

i) Break couplers
ii) Curve dependent speed limit

I am happy to consider adding some simple penalties using a combination of the above elements, but I am reluctant to make them too complicated as this will require more coding then I have time to do at the moment.

So any thoughts on how the above might be added to achieve some of the desired penalties suggested in the post above?

I would also be interested in somebody doing some realistic performance testing on the break coupler function. I have had a quick look at it, and the increase in forces when the train is climbing a gradient seem to be a bit low.

Any thoughts based upon realistic calculations?

[Genma Saotome]

For overturn I would think break coupler's would suffice, esp. if that stops the activity (one would expect a full stop if cars were overturned).

For ordinary stresses on couplers, take a look at http://www.elvastowe..._1#entry157657. I do not know if it is useful for OR but at least it is some real data.

[ATW]

I have the majority of my certified stock set to real life coupler limits, ranges to even lower aging limits even depending what mass they are an would be glad to test. The stock I have released will go well with this test as well. The point of why I give custom limits that are not the same is the fact if everything were same I would always get the first car to break an rarely any cars back.

I have been satisfied though with how ORTS deals with coupler breaks since introduced on stretches... just not seen any happen during heavy dynamic braking or pushing like example of road railers or empty in front or middle of loads.

My thoughts for coupler breaks on overturn penalties would be just if forces exceeding coupler limits make it do so whether run out or run in slack forces.

Take your time if anything is too complicated an let us know if you may or may not continue.