[wacampbell]

I thought I would separate this topic from the Feb wishlist thread.

I know a lot about the .geopcdx format, and the associated .igs formats. Enough that I have written a 3D viewer and all sorts of format converters for it.

Just some random comments:

- Its well optimized for efficient loading into direct x and includes support for LODs ( which very few popular formats do ). Their .igs to .geopcdx converter does a good job of optimization - making triangle strips and consolidating meshes etc. So it is a well designed format.

- If your objective is to be able to use Railworks content in Open Rails, this will fail. Much of the content is strongly encrypted. In the .geopcdx file, the hierarchy, materials, and texture names are in clear text to allow reskinners to do their thing. But the vertex buffers and index buffers can optionally be encrypted. I've only seen this encryption used on in-house railworks content. But it does make it impossible for OR to run railworks content with 100% confidence.

- I saw someone talking about making a .s to .igs converter. There are ways to do this now. Having such a tool would allow MSTS content to run on Railworks, but I don't see how it helps Open Rails.

- If for some reason the OR project decides to proceed with the .geopcdx format. I strongly advise seeking permission. If you don't get permission, don't use it period. I see people here spouting all sort of legal interpretations and opinions. But thats not how this community works. Its the right thing to do to seek permission and if you don't get it, move on to something else.

Personally, my opinion is don't use .geopcdx. Find something else.

[disc]

 wacampbell, on 02 February 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

I know a lot about the .geopcdx format, and the associated .igs formats. Enough that I have written all sorts of 3D viewers and format converters for it. Just some random comments:

You have viewers and format converters for railworks 3d files? Where can i find these? However i don't play with that game anymore, because it's hopelessly bugged, and flawed and the developers don't care about it, but sometimes i still help develop addons for it for those who still have hope in RW, where this could be useful :shock6:

 wacampbell, on 02 February 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

In the .geopcdx file, the hierarchy, materials, and texture names are in clear text to allow reskinners to do their thing.

Actually those aren't like this to help reskinners :) if RSC/Dovetail games would really help reskinners they would fix the reskin blueprints for example which they don't do. They simply didn't have better option.

I don't think OR should read RW 3d files, but a converter to OR specific format would be useful. The problem is, that OR still don't have it's own 3D format (.s is obviously needs to be replaced). But a TgPcDx to dds converter could work, as the TgPcDx is actually an obfuscated DDS file.

[wacampbell]

 disc, on 02 February 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

You have viewers and format converters for railworks 3d files? Where can i find these?

Because of the encryption I mentioned, my software works on only a limited subset of RW files and so I haven't released them.

Quote

... hopelessly bugged, and flawed and the developers don't care

Untrue and unnecessary.

Quote

Actually those aren't like this to help reskinners :p

They had the option to encrypt the entire file. Exposing this data was only for the benefit of the reskinners.

Quote

...but a converter to OR specific format would be useful.

impossible because of the encryption. It would work on some files, but not all. I would do so only with their permission and cooperation. Otherwise I wouldn't want such a thing to be part of the official OR release.

[Jeffrey Kraus-Yao]

Erased.

[gpz]

 Jeffrey Kraus-Yao, on 02 February 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

Would you attach the correspondence with Microsoft where Open Rails sought and was granted permission to use the Train Simulator shape file format?

What makes it different is that MSTS is a kind of abandonware, while RW is a live business.

[wacampbell]

 Jeffrey Kraus-Yao, on 02 February 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

Would you attach the correspondence with Microsoft where Open Rails sought and was granted permission to use the Train Simulator shape file format?

At the time OR started MSTS was long gone. You are right - someone owned the IP. But I am not talking about legal requirements here. You can debate that forever. What's right is that .geopcdx is used by an active company supporting the community. If they don't wish us to use it, we shouldn't use it.

[Jeffrey Kraus-Yao]

Erased.

[disc]

 Jeffrey Kraus-Yao, on 02 February 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

I have contacted Rail Simulator requesting permission for Open Rails to use the GeoPcDx format.

It's totally unnecessary. RW addons won't be ever compatible with OR without conversion, and converting models is just a small part of the conversion of an addon. The tools for RW have very low quality, and it's a pain to use them, so the tools don't help at all. And the copyright problems... with public methods of reading geopcdx files, they would let you to rip the 3d models from their game, modify them, and use as your own, and that's not gonna happen.
Also the shaders of RW aren't exist in OR.

 wacampbell, on 02 February 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Untrue and unnecessary.

Seeing those unfixed bugs in game since Rail Simulator after so many bug reports, i think it's very true. When i made my addons to RW it was like playing minesweeper game, just instead of mines, i've tried to avoid and workaround the game bugs :p

 wacampbell, on 02 February 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

They had the option to encrypt the entire file. Exposing this data was only for the benefit of the reskinners.

And they also had the option to make reskin blueprint work as it should(thus avoid a lot of problems which are there with those "hacked" geopcdx reskins), but they don't, as they just tolerate reskinning(as players doing that since RS released, and they fear the consequence of prohibiting it) and not supporting that.

[longiron]

I think a couple of interesting concepts were exposed in the recent interchange about RWs GeoPcDx format.

1) The idea of encrypting a portion of the 3D mesh file to secure content - think payware vendors - while exposing other elements to allow easy re-skinning.

2) The need for comprehensive and easy-to-use tools to convert a variety of 3D content creation tools into whatever runtime format is decided upon

3) The format should be "well optimized for efficient loading into direct x (version dependency???) and includes support for LODs" (to quote Wayne) as well as other elements the OR team believes included.

chris

[vince]

 Jeffrey Kraus-Yao, on 02 February 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

I have contacted Rail Simulator requesting permission for Open Rails to use the GeoPcDx format.

Jeff, you must realize that Open Rails is the new commercial sims worst nightmare, no? I predict they'd sooner slit their throats than give permission. If I ran one of those companys I'd be thinking of way to torpedo Open Rails big time! I counsel staying far, far away from any of the present commercial sims stuff.

Fact is, 'new' sims like RW were my main reason for supporting OR! Here we were in MSTS with hundreds of thousands of quality freeware add-ons and the 'new' sims decided to dump all that? From a community standpoint that's just nuts!

Yes, you could make the argument that the MSTS shape/ace file is lacking in graphics capability but *.dds textures are being worked on, right? That solves some of the graphics nicely I'd think.


best,

vince