[GTADon]

Hello again, it seems that I am coming here more often these days. Today it is about L&PS the new version, specifically the brakes NOT releasing on the motor cars #12 & #14. The route seemed to run fine with the Boxmotor-Caboose, but utilizing the Motorcars the brakes will not release after a slight application.

I used ConText to compare files, I didn't find anything out place as far as the braking or anything else. Running everything through RR did not bring up anything.

I have included 3 files that are progressive, the situation just got worse, and this with just a nominal application of the brakes. I have included the file from OR as well in case there is something listed.
 L&PS BRAKE.zip (1.84MB)
Number of downloads: 393

[GTADon]

Just a note, the above Activity is T32 London to Port Stanley with cars #1 & #2, I am now running T9 Port Stanley to London with cars #11 & 4 which is running properly, no braking problems.

I compared the "ENG" files and cannot see any differences using the "compare function" in ConText. Maybe it has something to do with the Act + OR not agreeing on something?

Thank You

[Sid P.]

I just tried running T9 and T12 in ORTS X2789 (and X2231 for comparison) and noticed some strange behavior, too. In the T9 activity the F5 HUD Brake activity shows the properties of of a hidden loco between the two visible cars. F9 display shows 3 cars, the 2 view shows only 2 (as declared in the activity file, and as found in the .con file). but the F7 display shows a zero-length third car "0-3" between the two visible cars! If I run the same consist from T9 in explore mode, it looks normal. Brakes do not seem to work normally in ORTS. Everything works fine in MSTS.

Cheers,
Sid.

[gpz]

GTADon, on 12 January 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

the brakes NOT releasing on the motor cars #12 & #14

I tried, and for me the brakes release normally, without any problems. I have the opposite problem: the brakes are non-effective when they apply. This is caused by the parameters

	MaxBrakeForce ( 0.282kN )
	BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce ( 0.50 )

have strange values set. If I multiply both values by 100 (so they become 28.2kN and 50, respectively), brake effect is normal, although I must admit is changing very slowly. I tried with the most recent OR version.

[Sid P.]

Hi All,
Adding to my earlier post above (12:16 PM) - the answer to my observation is the presence of an invisible "invisocar.wag" added in many of the activity consists between the driving loco and the first car. This provides some additional realism factors (see the Readme for this car). However, this car has a set of brakes, operated with the main train brakes, that have much greater brake force and different release characteristics than the driving loco. I believe this contributes to the strange braking behaviors when a consist including this invisible car is used (e.g. in the T9 activity).

ORTS is aware of the invisocar, and simply adds it as an additional car in the HUD, but there are no exterior graphics to display it. Because it has brakes, it appears in the F5 Braking HUD. In addition, it appears as an additional cab when typing Ctrl-E - you have an apparent extra cabview position and control stand, even though the car has no cabview() statement.
I think that the braking should be at least made consistent with the driving car - maybe it would work better if it had zero mass, and no braking ? Would ORTS be able to ignore it then? Does MSTS ignore it?

This is quite a nice route, with lots of features and activities as run in MSTS.

GTADon, on 12 January 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

Hello again, it seems that I am coming here more often these days. Today it is about L&PS the new version, specifically the brakes NOT releasing on the motor cars #12 & #14. The route seemed to run fine with the Boxmotor-Caboose, but utilizing the Motorcars the brakes will not release after a slight application.
L&PS BRAKE.zip

Re GTADon's post - I think the problem about releasing of the brakes may be tied to the presence of the invisible car's braking. Try F5 and then repeat Shift-F5 until you get to the braking display - you may find that the invisible car's (it is the one behind the lead car) brakes are not releasing properly, as shown by the BC (Brake Cylinder) value. Check if the consist has an "invisocar".

Cheers,
Sid.

[gpz]

Sid P., on 14 January 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

I think that the braking should be at least made consistent with the driving car - maybe it would work better if it had zero mass, and no braking ? Would ORTS be able to ignore it then? Does MSTS ignore it?

I would suggest such cars configuration to have BrakeSystemType( Air_piped )
This way the car will have no brakes at all, but still transfers air through itself. It is MSTS compatible.

[GTADon]

I was aware of the Inviso-Car from the readme. Does it have a purpose for operating the main cars' systems? Can this car be eliminated out of the consist without affecting the "train"?

As to the recharging rate of the system, these cars probably had a smallish one or two cylinder compressor that is working itself to the limit, charging air tanks the size of which would be carried on these cars would take a bit more time than the modern efficient compressors and valving systems in place on modern equipment. I found that a few allowances must be observed to stop in the correct spot.

I am going to try those brake values and see what happens as well as making a new consist without the Inviso-Car.

Thank you all for the info.

[GTADon]

I have modified the brake values to those given above on both cars, as well as removing the Brake sentences from the InvisoCar as well as making it have 0.0 Mass and weight.

The braking is much improved, it will still take a little getting used to but the train stops reliably from 20mph and the brakes release much better, though it still takes some time.

**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Now for the interesting part, you have to keep the ";:" key (release brake) pressed, I let go at Yarmouth and the brakes held at 9lbs (that's when I released the key). Repeated presses did not release them any further. Pressing the ""'" key (brake apply) does apply more brake, but then it still will not release.

There must still be something going on. I am thinking of replacing some of the contained brake values with those of one of the DAR RDC cars in my stable or even one of the NY MU Cars and see what happens. I think that OR is not reading something accurately, however, but I am going to try some other settings, the RDC included with the DAR works great in OR, so that is what I am going to try first.

[GTADon]

I found something interesting that I am going to try, there were other versions of both #12 & #14 at TS, I am going to try them because there is an included alternate "ENG" file for use with BIN and it has a different braking text than the ones included with the route.

I am going to see how they work out tomorrow.

[GTADon]

Well the TS versions of cars #12 & 14 did not fair very well at all. This makes me think that something in OR is affecting the brake performance of these two cars, maybe something in the Eng file braking area that is not agreeing with OR. I am going to try replacing the braking portion with a more modern style of braking system from one of the RDCs from the DAR route. The cabview for the trolleys includes 3 levers, the one with the knob for power and what appears to be two brake levers even though the real cars have a handbrake as well which does not appear to be usable.

One other question I have, does the line: ( num wheels 4 ) seem correct? The MU35 cars list ( num wheels 8 ) as do most other locomotives, does this affect the way the brakes/acceleration work?

Thanks for any help on this,

Just an update, I have replace the brake values in #12 & #14 with the file from the Fonda Johnstown and Gloversville Electric Division Brill Bullet cars. Just replacing the brake files helped a lot. The release does not have to be kept pressed, the brakes bleed down correctly now!

The Act T08 does not appear correctly, has anyone redone the Activities for the L & PS? For some reason errors are constant with both ConBuilder and TrainStore but everything checks out with Route Riter.

MSTS Simulator comes up with errors on "Line 160 & Line 166" of most of the L&PS engine files, but I cannot see anything wrong even using ConText.