[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

Over on Railworks, radiator heat waves have also been discussed.
One of the techheads suggested using concentric particle emitters set at their lightest density, using the lightest blueish white colour. The interference between those particle clouds should provide the illusion of a heat wave effect in theory.

In practice, when you look through the heat wave over the radiators of a hard working engine, there is no real particle effect, but rather the optic distortion of the background in rippling waves to a certain width and height, trailing behind the engine. Best seen in clear weather during high contract daylight conditions, summer or winter makes no difference.

That kind of distortion is impossible to reproduce with particles and can only be achieved by optical effects exactly in your sight line. DSC's flight sim apparently has this effect applied to its fighter jets.

Of course, the illusion of a radiator emitting heat by restrained and clever use of particles effects is probably good enough to fool our eyes. It is the immersive illusion after all that makes our sims tick.

So by all means try and experiment. Can an invisible emitter car of zero length be transposed forwards from its actual position in the train so as to end just under the radiator area of a preceding engine?

[markus_GE]

Just to answer your question: Articulated steam locomotives can do this, as well as the "Crew cars" available here on ET, so it should be possible, thinking just of what I know.

The only Problem I have is, that I´m nowhere near being capable myself of creating such a car - don´t know what to do, especially to get in invisible... But that´s all mentioned in my previous post.

Cheers, Markus

[copperpen]

Heat shimmer is certainly something that would add interest to the viewer of the locomotive, however, I am not one who likes to use additional invisible cars to add effects. My preferred method would be to have any such additional effects confined to the locomotive in the same way that they are linked to an airplane in flightsim. Not doable with MSTS friendly code, but could be a possibility as OR matures.

[markus_GE]

Well, there´s still the possibility to edit every eng file on it´s own, but seeing Falcus' above comment I´m also convined that probably this method is somewhat... let´s call it impractical :)

As for how far OR could go, that will have to be answered by one of the Devs, I guess.

Cheers, Markus

PS: Thanks for the - obviously growing - interest. ;)

[rdamurphy]

It's certainly possible, and would be an excellent effect, perhaps even adding heat from the dynamic brake grids when the dynamic brakes are in use. At least after 1.0, when the parameters for the new OR .eng files are established, they could be added. Along with a lot of other things being added. Brake smoke, traction motor failures, turbo failures, etc, etc, etc....

Robert

[markus_GE]

Sounds like a Long - and very impressive - way to go for OR.

Anyway, how big would the interest in a flimmer car be in General?

Cheers, Markus

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

I don't know, Markus. You can always try, it will be a very good learning experience in working with emitters and such. But I think the only right way to achieve heat flimmer is by optical distortion.

There is other "eye candy" that comes first on my list.
Proper engine exhaust smoke, cylinder cocks and steam leaks and that kind of particle effects, where the particles are sugject to gravity, wind and decay. Then there is lights casting shadows, foggy and rainy weather with clouds moving, thunder and lightning etc.

But let the OR team first establish a solid base of simulation engine, rendering engine, multiplayer engine etc. before indulging in more eye candy. :)

[markus_GE]

Seems like preliminarily I´m going to put this Project on Ice - to Keep it well cooled and fresh, in case ;) Also, it would anyway take a Long time to get somewhere pleasing with it, considering the amount of time I got left now that School started again, while I´m still writing my FBA (snippets of which I Keep posting in the other thread) - I´m just too busy, I think :)

Nevertheless, if anybody´s interested in my (further - if I do more Research) findings, just PM me or post below. I´ll see what I can do.

Cheers, Markus

http://www.eiswuerfel.cc/contao/tl_files/Inhalt/eis_zylinder_gr.jpg

[Falcus]

I didn't log on yesterday or I definitely would've contributed more to this thread.

@Markus
I entirely understand Real Life obligations > MSTS Projects. And I'm glad its getting "iced" rather then "Axed". I do want to add a little to whats been said however.

@the General Thread

As far as OR adding what I would imagine having to be recognition for "Additional Exhaust/Particle Emission Points" in an effort to include this, I think its an outstanding idea. The issue with it though, is what about all the older rolling stock with .Eng's that aren't written for it? How many Hundreds if not Thousands of Diesels have come rolling out of the 3DTS, BLLW, Columbus LW, Diesel's West, MLT, and SLI shops, and then had further repaints done of them? Not to mention theres more Freeware rolling around then I care to think about. Though adding this as a feature to future locomotives is DEFINITELY an awesome and appreciated idea, finding a solution for the older stock I think makes a fair amount more sense for the time being, because (Since I already used this loco as an example) when is anyone ever going to get around to building another BNSF C44 #1033 again that makes use of all the bells and whistles now (Or soon to be) available in OR? And even if they built THAT particular locomotive, what about NS SD40-2 #3185 (Not sure if this is a real one or not)? Or any other particular model we already have a Payware equivalent available for? Are we really thinking 3dts/MLT/SLI (Since these three are so popular) are going to be releasing updated physics/.engs free of charge, or even at all?

As I already mentioned, though the process might eventually be able to be narrowed down enough to just copy and paste anywhere between 3-15 lines of text into a .eng, doing this for again, hundreds, if not thousands, of locomotives quickly gets impractical. Further, if you miss even one space in one of these .engs, BOOM! Dead locomotive.... That leaves distributing new versions of the .engs, which then brings up who's got the time to program them all and assemble them, how do you distribute them in an effective way (Since no 2 MSTS/OR users have identical Locomotive Libraries), and finally but not least, Copyright issues (Though I'm sure most of the payware folks would love the idea, its going to take time to contact them and get "Permission").

Which gets me back to Creating "Flimmer Cars". I don't know if they would have to be .Engs. There have been a few "Smoking Cabeese" done by Tim Muir and a couple others, and though I know a couple were done as .engs, I thought I remembered seeing at least 2 that were done as .Wags. /shrug. Regardless, if you ask around, I'm sure there are answers to be had. Ill admit I too was immediately put into mind of the "Crew Cars" when I thought about this, but I think the Smoking Cabeese are a few rungs closer to what were looking for here. There is also a "Passenger Car Steam Effect Car" available somewhere (I actually have it, and its great, but I don't remember where I got it) that was made to be inserted between the MILW Quills or Bi-polars, and any passenger coaches they might be pulling (It works well with most passenger equipment IMHO, though sometimes it can be a bit excessive).

I will say that after thinking about it, there will definitely need to be a variety of cars made if this project were to proceed. The good news though is that ALOT of different locomotives built by different manufacturers over the years have very similar distances and proportions involved in the placement of their radiators.... EMD GPs for instance starting as early as the GP9s could arguably have Heat Flimmer coming from similar areas as a GP30 IMHO, and certainly a GP60 will have Flimmer in similar locations to a GP30.

Further, since were talking about an "Invisible Distortion" instead of a "Visible Particle Emission", I believe you will find theres alot of room for Liberty in this area. Go around a curve and some Flimmer hangs off the side of the engine? So what? Maybe a Gust of wind hit it... Heat Flimmer "Appears a tad too far in front of the Radiator"? So? Speed up some, or maybe that unit just has an overly hot Turbo, or maybe it was a custom job rebuilt by the shops so the Radiator never lined up exactly with the Vents? Theres all kinds of places you can take this.... As long as the effect is essentially a subtle, almost invisible "Distortion of the objects on the opposite side from the camera", and as long as its marginally coming out some where over wherever the Engine is located on the locomotive, I think it'd look fine.

Finally, I wanted to add that ambient temperature *DOES* in fact affect Heat Flimmer... Flimmer is caused by Heat being released into air cooler then whatever is releasing it. I'm sure there are equations and known conversion rates that will incur the visible effect, however, not being overly into Thermo-dynamics, I don't know what they are, and honestly can't be bothered to look them up. However, there are places in the world where you're more likely to see Flimmer coming off a locomotive working hard during the winter, then you are to see it in the summer at the same location. Ambient Lighting plays a role in this as well. Not all Locomotives Flimmer Equally either (In similar conditions) ~.^ lol.

Thanks for reading if you have,
Falcus

[markus_GE]

No Problem, really were some interesting things in there :rolleyes:

I´m not going to comment on anything of the real-world effects you mentioned, since I for sure am no more knowledgeable on it than you are.

As for the virtual side of the Topic: I guess, as for the time being OR is just trying to get compatible with MSTS Content, the only solution we would have at the time would be using well-dosed particle Systems, bettre known as "exhaust". Since MSTS compatibility is put first for OR, it will quite likely take some time until we can even think of such visual effects like thermo-dynamical distortion of the Background of what you see, which therefore would be an Argument pro-flimmer cars.

May they have to be .engs or .wags doesn´t really matter, as from my current POV there are three Major diffculties:

• A lack of time
• A lack of the required knowledge
• A lack of interest to get into doing something that is not generally seen as the best solution, and that will possibly not too far away (let´s see, where we are in one year´s time) be replaced by something better.

Yet, as you already said, Falcus, the Project is not "axed". If I can gather enough info and interest, I might give it a go, if somehow possible. Also, as for the last Point I mentioned, I´m hoping that such possible effects (if they are ever to come - saying this, as no ORdev has yet replied) could be applied in a similar way to exhaust effects, which would mean upgrading the cars would not be too hard (that´s why I listed this Point last).

No matter how it turns out, thanks for your interest to the two or three that replied :lol:

Cheers, Markus