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I started to write this as a PM to TurboBill (Bill Prieger) and Coonskin (Andre Ming), two railroad professionals, but I decided it might be more interesting to make it a public discussion instead, so here goes....
========= Question 1 ===========
I've fiddled with the targets on the Scalerail switch stands... I've got high target red and yellow diamond targets that I use for train crew thrown switches and per SP rules the red diamond is used above the switch on any turnout that joins track used by regular trains, yellow for all others. I'm also using low target switchstands to represent those switches that are remotely actuated (n.b., In MSTS lingo, all are manual, but only the high switchstand models are meant to be thrown by a train crew). I'm wondering about the circumstances, if any, I should remove the low target switchstand targets and replace them with the high, manually thrown switches with red targets.
For example, in CTC controlled territory, it's my understanding that all dispatcher controlled track will have powered, remotely actuated switches for any turnouts leading into/out of track the dispatcher might use to control the movement of trains. What is typically done for industrial leads? Do the switches for those turnouts always have remotely actuated switches? Sometimes? Never? Basically, what are the rules a route designer should follow?
========= Question 2 ===========
Second question: .ca 1950, roughly half of the 110 miles of my Cal-P route were within yard limits. What, if anything, does that fact have WRT the above question? And what, if anything does that fact have WRT activities (assuming activities are for Open Rails and have more capabilities than does MSTS)?
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Two questions for the Pro's
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#1
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Posted 03 December 2011 - 09:51 AM
#2
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Posted 03 December 2011 - 10:37 AM
Hello Dave:
My mainline railroading experience is primiarly on dark territory, therefore used Train Orders (a long time ago) and now Track Warrant control. However, I have some experience in signaled territory, but zero experience in regards to SP practices. My answers will be very general in nature and not SP specific. That is IF I'm understanding your questions correctly. :blink:
1. Out on the mainline (i.e. where authority to occupy must be held), any switch that can control a mainline movement should have a high switchstand with red night-visible target and/or indicator (for your era). Typically, only switches to be remotely controlled by a Dispatcher for the movement of trains would be powered. (Powered switches are expensive.) Out on the mainline, switchstands controlling an industrial spur off the main typically would not be powered. Those SHOULD be high target night visible switchstands. Powered switches would/could be used at meet/passing points, sub division/division junctions, interlockings w/interchanges, etc.
2. Within Yard Limits, low switch non-powered stands could be on the "main" to access industrial leads, spurs, etc. The rules require Restricted Speed within such limits, so the need for Dispatcher controlled control points is reduced significantly, as well as the need for distance target recognition. During your era, there could have been more latitude within Yard Limits. Under today's FRA requirements, we now have to have switch locks on any switch on the main line through Yard Limits. Plus, the switch must be left lined for the main when no one is present to attend it (such as when out on a lead switching a customer). This was a crippling rule in regards to efficient (quick) switching. Exceptions to said rule can be in place via Special Instructions, as is the case on our railroad.
Hope some of the above helps.
Perhaps Bill's experience in signalled territory will allow these questions to more fully elaborated upon.
Andre
My mainline railroading experience is primiarly on dark territory, therefore used Train Orders (a long time ago) and now Track Warrant control. However, I have some experience in signaled territory, but zero experience in regards to SP practices. My answers will be very general in nature and not SP specific. That is IF I'm understanding your questions correctly. :blink:
1. Out on the mainline (i.e. where authority to occupy must be held), any switch that can control a mainline movement should have a high switchstand with red night-visible target and/or indicator (for your era). Typically, only switches to be remotely controlled by a Dispatcher for the movement of trains would be powered. (Powered switches are expensive.) Out on the mainline, switchstands controlling an industrial spur off the main typically would not be powered. Those SHOULD be high target night visible switchstands. Powered switches would/could be used at meet/passing points, sub division/division junctions, interlockings w/interchanges, etc.
2. Within Yard Limits, low switch non-powered stands could be on the "main" to access industrial leads, spurs, etc. The rules require Restricted Speed within such limits, so the need for Dispatcher controlled control points is reduced significantly, as well as the need for distance target recognition. During your era, there could have been more latitude within Yard Limits. Under today's FRA requirements, we now have to have switch locks on any switch on the main line through Yard Limits. Plus, the switch must be left lined for the main when no one is present to attend it (such as when out on a lead switching a customer). This was a crippling rule in regards to efficient (quick) switching. Exceptions to said rule can be in place via Special Instructions, as is the case on our railroad.
Hope some of the above helps.
Perhaps Bill's experience in signalled territory will allow these questions to more fully elaborated upon.
Andre
#3 Inactive_Turbo Bill_*
Posted 03 December 2011 - 10:27 PM
For non-passing sidings and industrial spurs, you are correct in that the high square/diamond red targets are used in CTC territory AND in yard limits territory you could find both high and ground-throw targets on all manual switches. I know as I had to throw one when crossing from SP Albany yard to the Toledo district on the east end of the yard. Remember, on the SP, they were only a bi-directional railroad with eastbound and increasing mile markers when moving away from the SP headquarters in San-Fransisco and west when moving toward S-F. And yes I used to run westbound geographically for 70+ miles and I was an eastbound train!!! But I digress as I usually do. The non-dispatcher controlled switches always had a locked box next to the main that they had to open before they could unlock and throw the switch. I will get a picture of one here in Woodburn and attach it to this thread. The dispatcher controlled switches are at each end of any controlled sidings used for passing trains and for any signals where Dark territoy, abs signaled territory and yard limit territory ended and CTC limits began. Again, at this signal you had a white sign with black lettering that read "entering ctc limits". I don't think they had any targets as traffic thru these switches and any entrance points were controlled by signal indication only. If we had to manually throw any of these powered switches, and that was almost daily on one section CTC track I ran on, you had to ask permission to take the powered switch into hand-throw, line it over and back, and ask permission to go by the signal displaying "Stop" indication, there were no targets, low or high. Only high red targets on any switches on any main track switches CTC or Dark territory. The only time I remember seeing yellow targets and red round targets was on really old customer spurs was in yard-limits in dark territory and the ground hand throw switches all had low targets on them. Also all spurs and industrial sidings also had derails that prevented unwanted movements from entering the main track and these had a red round target on them with a high target for high derail switch stands and a low target on ground level ones. These switch-stands also had a round white metal sign on them with a large black "D".
Now regarding your Cal-P '50's era. Many yard-limit territories could and did have up to 40mph speed limits, but in these cases you could never leave a switch in other than normal position, which usually was the main, unless the dispatcher distinctly gave verbal permission if you had CTC and this was in the semaphore era as well as searchlight signal era. In pre-CTC and CTC days you had a red/yellow/green light with a second signal that would light up as a white light or "lunar" as the SP called it. You did not have to stop at the red but were required to stop your train in accordance with proper trainhandling techniques ASAP. This lunar signal change from a green to a white light if any mainline switches were not lined for the main inside of yard limits where track speed was more than 20 mph. Also, this lunar light was usually 1/4 mile out from the yard limit territory boundary in either direction and only approaching the yard limits. If a fast thru train approached the yard and saw that lunar, he was required to proceed thru the yard limit territory at restricted speed, yada, yada, yada, not exceeding 20mph. If the lunar light was dark, he knew he could proceed thru the yard at 30mph to this day in Albany and in many cases 40mph in yard-limits where time sensitive trains were frequented. In all cases in any signal of any form a dark indication was to be treated as whatever the most restricted indication on dispatcher controlled switches and a "stop & proceed" at intermediate (number-plated) signals. A dark lunar was to be treated as it's most restrictive indication which was R.S. not exceeding 20mph.
In the days prior to CTC and again even in CTC until the end of the SP you had a two faced low device that had a red semaphore on a white face and you were not allowed to open the switch if any of the semaphores were not in the track clear or proceed position.
Here's how it worked to the very end of the SP in both CTC and non-CTC territory (the SP also had ABS territory that had semaphores or search-light signal) or dark territory, were the yard speed on the main was over 20mph. Before you could open the switch you had to make sure the 2 semaphore paddles were in the clear track position (again one paddle for east and one for west of the switch). If they were clear you were able to unlock and open the switch or throw it into the diverge position. You then had to man that switch and wait 5 minutes and be ready to throw that switch back to normal if you heard any approaching trains from either direction. The reason for this was to make sure any trains that were by the "Distant yard limit" signal(or "D" signal, there was a white round metal sign with a black "D" painted on it that was attached to mast that held the lunar signal) when the switch was thrown and moving at a high rate of speed still had assurance that all mainline entry switches were still properly lined within the yard limits. If no trains were heard (all trains traveling thru yard-limits on the main were required to continuously ring their bell until they left the yard-limits) approaching you then had permission (BUT not authority) to proceed with your train out of the yard. The dispatcher always is the only one to give authority for a train to be out there anywhere outside of yard limits. Yard limits gave you permission to make all train movements inside the designated boundaries as laid out in the Time-table or SSI and in this case thru that switch if certain conditions were met.
Hope this helps, I will get you that pic tomorrow and if I can hunt down that SP timetable I will scan in a drawing of this semaphore track circuit device.
Now regarding your Cal-P '50's era. Many yard-limit territories could and did have up to 40mph speed limits, but in these cases you could never leave a switch in other than normal position, which usually was the main, unless the dispatcher distinctly gave verbal permission if you had CTC and this was in the semaphore era as well as searchlight signal era. In pre-CTC and CTC days you had a red/yellow/green light with a second signal that would light up as a white light or "lunar" as the SP called it. You did not have to stop at the red but were required to stop your train in accordance with proper trainhandling techniques ASAP. This lunar signal change from a green to a white light if any mainline switches were not lined for the main inside of yard limits where track speed was more than 20 mph. Also, this lunar light was usually 1/4 mile out from the yard limit territory boundary in either direction and only approaching the yard limits. If a fast thru train approached the yard and saw that lunar, he was required to proceed thru the yard limit territory at restricted speed, yada, yada, yada, not exceeding 20mph. If the lunar light was dark, he knew he could proceed thru the yard at 30mph to this day in Albany and in many cases 40mph in yard-limits where time sensitive trains were frequented. In all cases in any signal of any form a dark indication was to be treated as whatever the most restricted indication on dispatcher controlled switches and a "stop & proceed" at intermediate (number-plated) signals. A dark lunar was to be treated as it's most restrictive indication which was R.S. not exceeding 20mph.
In the days prior to CTC and again even in CTC until the end of the SP you had a two faced low device that had a red semaphore on a white face and you were not allowed to open the switch if any of the semaphores were not in the track clear or proceed position.
Here's how it worked to the very end of the SP in both CTC and non-CTC territory (the SP also had ABS territory that had semaphores or search-light signal) or dark territory, were the yard speed on the main was over 20mph. Before you could open the switch you had to make sure the 2 semaphore paddles were in the clear track position (again one paddle for east and one for west of the switch). If they were clear you were able to unlock and open the switch or throw it into the diverge position. You then had to man that switch and wait 5 minutes and be ready to throw that switch back to normal if you heard any approaching trains from either direction. The reason for this was to make sure any trains that were by the "Distant yard limit" signal(or "D" signal, there was a white round metal sign with a black "D" painted on it that was attached to mast that held the lunar signal) when the switch was thrown and moving at a high rate of speed still had assurance that all mainline entry switches were still properly lined within the yard limits. If no trains were heard (all trains traveling thru yard-limits on the main were required to continuously ring their bell until they left the yard-limits) approaching you then had permission (BUT not authority) to proceed with your train out of the yard. The dispatcher always is the only one to give authority for a train to be out there anywhere outside of yard limits. Yard limits gave you permission to make all train movements inside the designated boundaries as laid out in the Time-table or SSI and in this case thru that switch if certain conditions were met.
Hope this helps, I will get you that pic tomorrow and if I can hunt down that SP timetable I will scan in a drawing of this semaphore track circuit device.
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Posted 04 December 2011 - 01:46 PM
Thanks guys! I've got some changes to make now -- it'll all look like this when I finish swapping out shapes (except the red diamond will have a texture change to get all the equipment to display):
The low targets will signify a remote actuated switch. The high targets signify a crewman must manually throw the switch (the train has to slow down to a crawl or stop to allow the man to walk over to the switchstand) with red indicating the switch must be returned to its thru-traffic position as the path can be used by AI trains, the yellow indicating it really doesn't matter which way it is as it is off on it's own somewhere.
I don't know if I'm going to add de-rails or not.
The low targets will signify a remote actuated switch. The high targets signify a crewman must manually throw the switch (the train has to slow down to a crawl or stop to allow the man to walk over to the switchstand) with red indicating the switch must be returned to its thru-traffic position as the path can be used by AI trains, the yellow indicating it really doesn't matter which way it is as it is off on it's own somewhere.
I don't know if I'm going to add de-rails or not.
#5 Inactive_Turbo Bill_*
Posted 04 December 2011 - 02:43 PM
The low target ground throw switches should have the same targets as the high stands have. The ground-throw switch in the first set of tracks has a definite BN, SP&S look to it.
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Posted 04 December 2011 - 05:33 PM
Yeah, I know but I am constrained to making things appear differently by messing with the textures, not the model mesh and while the tall switchstand has a big square in it (upon which one may place a texture that make sit appear round, square, diamond, or even arrow-like, the low switchstand has a long, narrow rectangle to it and there just isn't enough height in it to match what's atop the other ones.
And were Marc to unexpectedly announce, "Hey I've got loads of spare time, want any changes to all of my MSTS switch models?" I'd slap myself upside the head to make sure I wasn't hallucinating and reply "Add lanterns, mask one set for kerosene and another for electric" and take a pass on enlarging the low stand poly. Lanterns would make me very happy! :lol2: But then I think we'll see pigs fly before that happens.
And were Marc to unexpectedly announce, "Hey I've got loads of spare time, want any changes to all of my MSTS switch models?" I'd slap myself upside the head to make sure I wasn't hallucinating and reply "Add lanterns, mask one set for kerosene and another for electric" and take a pass on enlarging the low stand poly. Lanterns would make me very happy! :lol2: But then I think we'll see pigs fly before that happens.
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