[Weter]

Hello

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a normal steam engine has "two" controls, ie cutoff and throttle, does the booster operate the same.?

See ##5,6,7
http://www.elvastowe...ttach_id=121590
One of consequences of cutoff absence:

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Since boosters were only capable of operating a lower speeds, they would either limit the locomotive to switching duties or must also have the ability to be disengaged which is the case with rear locomotive truck boosters.

[Traindude]

I know we're mainly discussing the physics and behavioral aspects of boosters, but something else to consider is the shape file and animation aspects. For example:

1. Jointed Steam Pipes
As mentioned in all the reference material heretofore provided, boosters, whether installed on the trailing truck or on a tender truck, have ball-jointed and/or telescopic steam pipes in order to give the truck flexibility when going around curves. How would this be handled in terms of hierarchies and shape files?

2. Tender Boosters with Side Rods
In the case of the tender booster trucks and their side rods, do we treat the booster truck's wheels as powered wheels (one digit, as in "WHEELSx") or non-powered wheels (two digits, as in "WHEELSxx")

Also: Peter, if you're looking for more examples of real-world locomotives with booster trucks, might I suggest the New York Central Hudson in the case of trailing truck boosters? I also recall reading that the Delaware & Hudson added tender boosters to their old Camelback 2-8-0's in the 1920s. If someone could help me find more info regarding these retrofits, that may also be of help!

[Weter]

About "flexible" steam-pipes:
There were some work on brake hoses of adjacent vehicles and animated couplers.

[Lamplighter]

I am not aware of European steam locomotives using a booster.
However, steam lines do. Both the fixed pipe and the flexible connection of the railcars near the coupling and air hoses:

https://www.vagony.cz/vagony/img_vytapeni/parni_spojka_k.jpg https://www.vagony.cz/vagony/img_vytapeni/odvodneni_rozmrazeni.jpg

[scottb613]

Hi Peter,

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How did you work out the graph, what input data did you use?

Sorry - my graph wasn't that scientific - I was just trying to envision how this should work. The gearing of the booster was probably very low - hence my assumptions - as the primary purpose was to start the train moving. I have yet to see anything that actually describes the amount of steam consumed. I have reached out to the group who restored the booster for the P4 I'm modeling - perhaps they will provide some info?

B&M P4 Pacific Restoration:
http://www.project3713.com/

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Can you provide me with a full copy of the Bethlehem Instruction Manual (in pdf if possible)?

I'll look - I can convert the images I posted to PDF - but I found them on some model railroader site and copied all they had.

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So given that a normal steam engine has "two" controls, ie cutoff and throttle, does the booster operate the same.? Or does it have a fixed cutoff rate, and a variable throttle only?

Everything I've read so far seems to indicate that the booster is simply an on or off device - you turn it on to start the train - and around 30MPH it cuts off automatically - where I would suspect the engineer secures it.


I'll see if I can find more information regarding your questions. It looks like the Franklin Booster is the one placed in "Delta" trailing Bogies/Trucks.

Perhaps Brandon could come up with a way to add some sounds to support this feature?

Thanks for your interest.

Regards,
Scott

[scottb613]

Traindude, on 05 January 2023 - 12:45 AM, said:

I know we're mainly discussing the physics and behavioral aspects of boosters, but something else to consider is the shape file and animation aspects. For example:

1. Jointed Steam Pipes
As mentioned in all the reference material heretofore provided, boosters, whether installed on the trailing truck or on a tender truck, have ball-jointed and/or telescopic steam pipes in order to give the truck flexibility when going around curves. How would this be handled in terms of hierarchies and shape files?

Hi Folks,

While this would be nice feature - I'm not sure we have to worry too much about this. When rigging the trailing truck connection points on my Mikado I found the movement of the truck is pretty minimal in practice. The modeler could probably address this movement without any special animations by adding a little play in the shape?

The big vertical pipe under the cab (pictured below) is the steam input to the booster. I'll probably try to have the vertical pipe as part of the bogie/truck and it will float in the connection point at the top which will be attached to the locomotive. Perhaps the bottom connection would work better? We'll see.

http://www.project3713.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/3713_cab_2000.jpg

Regards,
Scott

[ATSF3751]

Now this would be a nice feature to have for articulated locomotives. I am currently building the UP 3985 and was wondering how the best way to go about animating the pipes while going around curves since a lot of the piping does move while going around curves.

A few other features I would like to see implemented into Open Rails eventually for steam locomotives are as followed.

Coal Loads- Animated and fit with the tender without it being seen under the tender after being completed. Along with going back up after being refueled.

Tender Water Hatches- Animated water hatches that open when you go to refuel the locomotive with water. Also being able to refuel from a fire hydrant as well. Reason being is how many US Steam locomotives get there water now since water towers are non exsistant here in the US and Canada.

Booster Trucks- Working boosters for locomotives that have them

Reversers- Animated reversers so when you move the reverser in the cab it also changes on the locomotive.

Whistles/Air Horns- Making a way to have more then one whistle play on the locomotive without having to use the sander button. Many steam locomotives here in the USA has more then one whistle on the locomotive or AKA "Guest Whistle" while running.

Case in Point the Milwaukee Road 261 has 2 steam whistles and an air horn on it. SP 4449 also has a steam whistle and an air horn along with being capable of having more then one whistle on it at a time. NKP 765 has also had guest whistles on it before along with its original whistle on it while running. CP 2816 also has 2 whistles on it at the same time as well. Many diesels also have this option and have 2 air horns on them.

Steam and Smoke- Having steam and smoke be separate from each other and separate ACE files as well.

Differences in fuel- Having a difference in the type of fuel used by a steam locomotive. Meaning different types of coal, wood, oil, exc.

Sand- Having sand actually run out and maybe be shown coming out of the sanders when turned on.

Blower- Having a working blower for steam locomotives and have it interact with the smoke/steam

Cylinder Cocks- Cylinder cock steam be dependent on how much the throttle is open or closed instead of just coming out of the cylinders at the same rate.

Just a few of my thoughts I have been having while tinkering around with my Milwaukee Road 261 model and observing the real locomotive over the years.

Brandon

[Traindude]

ATSF3751, on 06 January 2023 - 02:40 PM, said:

Now this would be a nice feature to have for articulated locomotives. I am currently building the UP 3985 and was wondering how the best way to go about animating the pipes while going around curves since a lot of the piping does move while going around curves.

A few other features I would like to see implemented into Open Rails eventually for steam locomotives are as followed.

Coal Loads- Animated and fit with the tender without it being seen under the tender after being completed. Along with going back up after being refueled.

Tender Water Hatches- Animated water hatches that open when you go to refuel the locomotive with water. Also being able to refuel from a fire hydrant as well. Reason being is how many US Steam locomotives get there water now since water towers are non exsistant here in the US and Canada.

Booster Trucks- Working boosters for locomotives that have them

Reversers- Animated reversers so when you move the reverser in the cab it also changes on the locomotive.

Whistles/Air Horns- Making a way to have more then one whistle play on the locomotive without having to use the sander button. Many steam locomotives here in the USA has more then one whistle on the locomotive or AKA "Guest Whistle" while running.

Case in Point the Milwaukee Road 261 has 2 steam whistles and an air horn on it. SP 4449 also has a steam whistle and an air horn along with being capable of having more then one whistle on it at a time. NKP 765 has also had guest whistles on it before along with its original whistle on it while running. CP 2816 also has 2 whistles on it at the same time as well. Many diesels also have this option and have 2 air horns on them.

Steam and Smoke- Having steam and smoke be separate from each other and separate ACE files as well.

Differences in fuel- Having a difference in the type of fuel used by a steam locomotive. Meaning different types of coal, wood, oil, exc.

Sand- Having sand actually run out and maybe be shown coming out of the sanders when turned on.

Blower- Having a working blower for steam locomotives and have it interact with the smoke/steam

Cylinder Cocks- Cylinder cock steam be dependent on how much the throttle is open or closed instead of just coming out of the cylinders at the same rate.

Just a few of my thoughts I have been having while tinkering around with my Milwaukee Road 261 model and observing the real locomotive over the years.

Brandon

That's an impressive list! Kinda like mine. But as Peter said, he can only focus on one feature at a time, so right now we're focusing on booster trucks. Once that's completed we can talk about everything else! I only mentioned the jointed steam pipes because they're related to booster trucks, as can be seen in scottb613's photo of B&M 3713.

[joe_star]

Have been looking lately quite deeply into oil firing and researching the topic. Performance data from steam locomotives is sparse but quite readily available for industrial boilers. That has been enough for me to develop somewhat of a oil atomising model of the firing and heat release.

Would anyone have any oil fired locomotive performance data?

Thanks

[darwins]

joe_star, on 07 January 2023 - 12:54 AM, said:

Have been looking lately quite deeply into oil firing and researching the topic. Performance data from steam locomotives is sparse but quite readily available for industrial boilers. That has been enough for me to develop somewhat of a oil atomising model of the firing and heat release.

Would anyone have any oil fired locomotive performance data?

Thanks

I have some very basic information. Key points being the higher energy value of the fuel of course and that fact that it can be turned on and off rapidly without the time lag and retained heat associated with solid fuels.