Elvas Tower: "New" Trackviewer.... - Elvas Tower

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"New" Trackviewer.... Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Amtrak115 

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Posted 26 December 2021 - 07:44 PM

Back in April, I posted that I was looking into "TrackViewer". I have several ideas and some were discussed in that thread back in April. Since that time, I've set up the development environment and have been working with PerpetualKid's "Ultimate" repository as a basis for my efforts. Using Perpertualkid's baseline who refactored some of the code allowing very large routes to be loaded into trackviewer as well as some code cleanup...provided a nice basis for my efforts. I'm in the process of added the path editing functionality into my baseline. One of the objectives I've set is wanting to expand the functionality to include "Activity" editing. I know GoKu's editor does this but there are some bugs and I find working in the 3d space cumbersome for developing activities. I feel that an interface such as Trackviewer provides a better, easier basis for the generation of activities. While I'm still in the throws of learning The Trackviewer Code, which levers off the OR code baseline, I'm still thinking and as one of my menus currently says, "Crazy Ideas"....a place where I can try out some things while still working through the code.....

Anyway, I was rereading YoRyan's thread on his new Consist format (or whatever the final name for that is), and several comments jump out at me. One was from Dave N. who basically said, that the activity the way is defined in MSTS and current ORTS is basically automating the "Conductor's Role". Dave...If you read this, in plane English, what would you want the sim. to do if you were the "Conductor". Instead of ordered activity actions, what??

If I'm not clear....please bear with me. In my concept of Trackviewer...it's more like ...and what I call it a "Toolbox". A collection point for ORTS file editors to exist.....Trackview/Acitivity editor is the first.

anyway..

Amtrak115...... out

#2 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 26 December 2021 - 11:32 PM

Thank you for asking. Some people want the software to be the conductor and it does that by telling the engineer to come to a stop, throw a couple of switches, do a run around to the end, set aside the caboose, grab three cars and drop them at ABC Mfg.

The alternative is the player is the conductor. What a real conductor gets to work from is an ordered list of cars in the train and a handful of waybills that tells him where to leave them. He has to figure out where to stop, what switches to throw, which cars to pull off, and where to drop them. The engineer follows his instructions as do the brakies. If he is good them all goes quickly. If not the rest of the crew pick up PDQ that he doesn't know jack and it's going to a lot of wasted time getting across the division.

So elements of the above are the objective; the problems of implementing them are many. I think most of the answer lies in what the software shows the player (e.g., car initials and serial number), the name of the consignee (e.g., sprites) and what the activity player designer to tell the player so the software conveys that at the right time. That would include the same information I just mentioned (so the player knows what to look for). The last part that comes to mind is probably the hardest part: How to tell the signaling system you are going to be busy on several tracks for a period of time. You could identify which tracks and how long but you probably don't want to dive into the signalling software yourself.

That's the conductor doing retail work. The conductor also does wholesale work -- he has three blocks of cars to move across the division, one gets set off at an interlocked interchange, the other two go to the far terminal. The conductor needs to know where the block for the interchange is -- behind the locomotives or ahead of the caboose. Once again he needs to see that in sprites.

So the task needs things in the activities files and it needs changes in the OR software, and it needs a place to put those sprites. Traditionally the world file would have held that... but there isn't any reason why the activity editor couldn't record information is a new file and have the OR software read that.

Big change? Yes. But it adds the kind of game: player interaction that attempts to represent what dominated freight railroading everywhere.

#3 User is offline   railguy 

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Posted 27 December 2021 - 06:29 AM

I like building paths and consists and then incorporating them into activities. It would be nice to have "one-stop shopping" for this in OR. MSTS sort of did, but was way too primitive to be really useful. Goku's AE has one golden feature that I use almost daily--it allows placing of loose consists in the route environment visually--e.g., placing a grain hopper with one of its hatches exactly under the grain elevator spout. That is a huge factor in making an activity look "real." TSRE also makes it possible to toggle between the Consist Editor and the AE--create a new consist in the Consist Editor, hit the consist "Refresh" button in the AE, then add the new consist as a loose consist or as a consist in the Service part of the AE. The current deficiency in TSRE--aside from some pesky bugs, lack of some error traps, etc.--is that one has to create the paths in TrackViewer. Now, for path creation, TrackViewer beats the old MSTS AE in every way. If TrackViewer has a shortcoming, I think it is not being able to view the actual route within the viewer (with the ability to toggle the terrain and objects on or off). I have a hunch that was likely a long-term goal with TSRE, but was never developed. So, if the TSRE's ability to add loose consists, and to view terrain, were added with the other activity creation features to TrackViewer to create stand-alone AE, that would be fantastic.

As a side note, the one thing that I wish OR (with TSRE or TrackViewer) could do is allow route objects to be added or subtracted from in an individual activity (one of the things that TS20** allows). For example, let's say that you want to run an activity with a work train running to where a tie gang is replacing ties. It would be neat to add objects like trucks, workers, off-track equipment, supplies, etc. as objects to the route for that specific activity. That capability is likely beyond the scope of what is being discussed here, but it would be a nice addition.

#4 User is offline   Amtrak115 

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Posted 27 December 2021 - 08:35 AM

 railguy, on 27 December 2021 - 06:29 AM, said:

As a side note, the one thing that I wish OR (with TSRE or TrackViewer) could do is allow route objects to be added or subtracted from in an individual activity (one of the things that TS20** allows). For example, let's say that you want to run an activity with a work train running to where a tie gang is replacing ties. It would be neat to add objects like trucks, workers, off-track equipment, supplies, etc. as objects to the route for that specific activity. That capability is likely beyond the scope of what is being discussed here, but it would be a nice addition.


That there...is one my objectives with the Activity editor. I was building an activity using Amtrak's Southwest Chief. One of the refuel points is in Albuquerque. I wanted to add fuel trucks near the track where the Loco's would stop. Could it be done in TSRE...sure..however, why change the route for an activity specific object. This became one on the reasons for looking into the code....When I get there we may have to have a more in depth conversation .

later

Barry Leboeuf....aka Amtrak115

#5 User is offline   Amtrak115 

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Posted 27 December 2021 - 08:45 AM

 Genma Saotome, on 26 December 2021 - 11:32 PM, said:

So the task needs things in the activities files and it needs changes in the OR software, and it needs a place to put those sprites. Traditionally the world file would have held that... but there isn't any reason why the activity editor couldn't record information is a new file and have the OR software read that.

Big change? Yes. But it adds the kind of game: player interaction that attempts to represent what dominated freight railroading everywhere.



Thanks Dave...I agree with you...Personally, I'm not a multiplayer person, however, I believe that OR ought to evolve toward a "role" based operation....example, Today's Activity basically automates the conductor role telling the engineer where to go etc. We ought to have an role where the engineer is automated and through a series of tasks the conductor (the player) directs the sim. and finally there's a dispatcher role where the objective would be to move a lot of trains both Freight and passenger through a route and your responsible to issuing track warrents, throwing mainline switches etc.

all require changes to OR.

and that sir is why I started looking at the code and mucking with it. Those changes have to evolve in to the bigger baseline... and talking about what it should do, vs, trying to make it do is where I'm at. so I'm trying to "make it do". hopefully someone else will get benefit from it.

Barry

#6 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 27 December 2021 - 11:42 AM

 railguy, on 27 December 2021 - 06:29 AM, said:


As a side note, the one thing that I wish OR (with TSRE or TrackViewer) could do is allow route objects to be added or subtracted from in an individual activity (one of the things that TS20** allows). For example, let's say that you want to run an activity with a work train running to where a tie gang is replacing ties. It would be neat to add objects like trucks, workers, off-track equipment, supplies, etc. as objects to the route for that specific activity. That capability is likely beyond the scope of what is being discussed here, but it would be a nice addition.


That's an interesting idea. If the software were to regard the world files as always present and some other files as activity present we could do such things. For myself, I've advocated moving subsets of sprite text somewhere else and then move the text that so that only activity relevant sprites appear. For example, if sprite text is placed on every industrial spur you would only want to see those sprites where you are spotting or picking up cars.

The issue tho is the guys who do the code work on the subject matter that interests themself -- reasonable for volunteers -- and so if none are interesting in this idea it won't happen.

#7 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 27 December 2021 - 11:48 AM

 Amtrak115, on 27 December 2021 - 08:45 AM, said:

Thanks Dave...I agree with you...Personally, I'm not a multiplayer person, however, I believe that OR ought to evolve toward a "role" based operation....
Barry


I've thought about that too as part of my camera sets proposal; If you have one camera set for just the cab (e.g., 1, 2, 3...0 assigned to different positions) you could call it the Engineer Camera set and having done that reduce the list of value commands that will "take" when in that set to what an engineer could do. Similarly a Fireman camera set would be limited to what a fireman could do, etc., etc. I figured it would be feasible but in many situations it would be come awkward, things like switching. And so perhaps it would make sense only in multiplayer.

#8 User is offline   ebnertra000 

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Posted 27 December 2021 - 12:55 PM

Activity-specific .w files could be very interesting, allowing things like work equipment, static consists on yard tracks that activity won't use, even environmental things like storm damage

#9 User is offline   railguy 

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Posted 27 December 2021 - 01:07 PM

 ebnertra000, on 27 December 2021 - 12:55 PM, said:

Activity-specific .w files could be very interesting, allowing things like work equipment, static consists on yard tracks that activity won't use, even environmental things like storm damage


I've thought about that, too. Things like rockslides, snow drifts, etc. could be added. Lots of possibilities . . .

#10 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 27 December 2021 - 02:17 PM

Some part of this idea could be implemented with the Include statement; Consider this change: An activity is read before anything else and that file set includes one file that is just a list of world file names that will be altered for this activity. When the real world file names are read and there is a name match the corresponding include file is appended at the end of the real world file. There are issues tho, perhaps fatal issues, on account of the end user who might assign a less than maximum value for the Object Display limit -- that would suppress everything at the end of the world file; Using ESD_Watermark inside the .inc would get around that but in turn present a problem of merging the two files instead of appending one.

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