[scottb613]

Hi Folks,

New to passenger train operation - I think - there might be an issue with the "Graduated Release" in the options setup - when selected - the release rate crawls to a halt. Literally taking 30 or more seconds to release a couple lbs of pressure - making brake operation impossible. When Graduated Release is "unselected" - - - the release relate rate goes back whatever is defined in the ENG/WAG files.

Why would we have to switch between Passenger and Freight brake operations in the ORTS Options - instead of being defined in the ENG/WAG file?

Here's my setup files. Any other obvious issues in my brake setup - I'd appreciate a heads up.


Steam Locomotive:

Comment ( ##### BRAKES WAGON ##### )
	BrakeEquipmentType ( "Triple_valve, Auxilary_reservoir, Emergency_brake_reservoir, Handbrake" ) 
	BrakeSystemType ( "Air_single_pipe" ) 
	MaxBrakeForce ( 120kN ) 
	TripleValveRatio ( 2.5 ) 
	MaxApplicationRate ( 50 ) 
	MaxReleaseRate ( 50 ) 

	MaxAuxilaryChargingRate ( 1 ) 
	ORTSAuxilaryResCapacity ( 4.963 )

	BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce ( 57 )
	ORTSDirectAdmissionValve ( 0 ) 
	
	EmergencyResChargingRate ( 1 ) 
	EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure ( 90 ) 
	
	MaxHandbrakeForce ( 80kN ) 
	NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps ( 100 )

	ORTSBrakeShoeFriction ( 0.0 0.5 8.0 0.288 16.1 0.241 24.1 0.211 32.2 0.187 40.2 0.173 48.3 0.161 56.3 0.150 64.4 0.142 72.2 0.139 80.5 0.134 88.5 0.129 96.6 0.125 104.6 0.123 112.7 0.121) 

Tender:

	BrakeEquipmentType ( "Handbrake, Triple_valve, Emergency_brake_reservoir" ) 
	BrakeSystemType ( "Air_single_pipe" ) 
	MaxBrakeForce ( 100kN ) 
	MaxHandbrakeForce ( 25kN ) 
	NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps ( 100 ) 
	TripleValveRatio ( 2.5 ) 
	MaxReleaseRate ( 50 ) 
	MaxApplicationRate ( 50 ) 
	EmergencyResCapacity ( 3.6 ) 
	EmergencyResChargingRate ( 1 ) 
	EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure ( 70 ) 
	BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce ( 57 ) 

Carriage:

BrakeEquipmentType ( "Handbrake, Triple_valve, Auxilary_reservoir, Emergency_brake_reservoir" )
	BrakeSystemType ( "Air_single_pipe" )
	MaxBrakeForce( 65kN )

	MaxHandbrakeForce( 50kN )
	NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 )

	TripleValveRatio( 2.5 )
	MaxReleaseRate( 50 )
	MaxApplicationRate( 50 )
	MaxAuxilaryChargingRate( .3 )
	EmergencyResCapacity( 8.7 )
	EmergencyResChargingRate( 1 )
	EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure( 90 )
	BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce( 57 )

 OpenRailsLog.txt (15.1K)
Number of downloads: 138

Thanks.

Regards,
Scott

[Weter]

Hi, Scott.
Am I understand right, you are using steam powered train?
after quick wiew I see nothing wrong or strange (at code fragments), but:
1. graduated release depends on driver's valve design, so it would be courious to see brake tokens of train brake valve control
2. was this system type associated with steam locomotives actually?
3. I believe, Darvin S. can clarify alot about such question - let's wait, for what he would say.

[R H Steele]

Guidline for ORTS Brakes
Scott, the above ET thread is a good discussion about brakes, and has a link to Joe Realmuto's pdf "Guideline for setting Open Rails Braking Parameters".

[pschlik]

Pretty sure you should NOT need to use the graduated release setting in the options menu anymore (in 1.4 release candidate versions, that is), and the better approach is to change the brake types to use “graduated_release_triple_valve” instead of a normal triple valve. It may also be required to change the setup of the brake handle tokens to ones which allow for graduated release, as not all tokens are suitable for this.

Configuring equipment to be gradual release by nature, rather than requiring that option in the settings menu, is more robust and gives you more control over how the brakes behave.

[scottb613]

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the help and the guidance. As stated - never messed with passenger cars much until lately. I was just following the Tool Tip in the ORTS Settings menu that stated - as a General Rule use graduated for passenger operations. Yeah - that might be technology they didn’t have in the 1940’s - LOL - haven’t a clue and more research required.

Glad we have the ability to define in the ENG/WAG files - much better way of doing business.

Regards,
Scott

[dajones]

I have a Sep 1925 Westinghouse Air Brake Co document that describes the PC Passenger Car Brake Equipment and it has graduated release.

Doug

[darwins]

Firstly as already stated,

( a ) there appears to be nothing seriously wrong with the wagon section of the loco or with the tender or passenger cars.

( b ) replace "Triple_valve" with "Graduated_Release_Triple_Valve" for older passenger stock. (Use Distributor for more modern stock.) [You should not need to tick the box on the options tab.]

( c ) "The Guidelines for ORTS Brakes" will tell you what you need to know about correctly setting up Emergency Reservoirs for North American rolling stock. (I rather wish that those of us in the rest of the world could avoid having to include the non-existant emergency reservoirs in our Open Rails files!)

Two small points:

Applications and release rates of 50psi/s for brake cylinders are pretty fast! They probably need to be lower to spread the air usage and brake action more evenly along the length of the train. I generally use 20 for passenger stock and lower values for goods wagons.

ORTSDirectAdmissionValve is a feature of vacuum brake systems and should not need to be included in an air brake system.

You may need to check the settings in the engine part of the eng file.

Comment ( *** Braking system *** )

	BrakesTrainBrakeType( " " )
	BrakesEngineControllers( " " )

Comment ( == Compressor, Reservoir and General == )
	AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure(  )
	AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure(  )
	ORTSBrakePipeChargingRate (  )
	AirBrakesMainResVolume(  )
	ORTSMainResChargingRate (  )
	TrainPipeLeakRate (  )

Comment ( == Automatic Brake valve - Train == )
	TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure(  )
	ORTSTrainBrakesControllerMaxOverchargePressure (  )
	ORTSTrainBrakesControllerOverchargeEliminationRate (  )
	TrainBrakesControllerMaxQuickReleaseRate(  )
	TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate(  )
	TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate(  )
	TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate(  )
	TrainBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop(  )
	TrainBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction(  )

Finally as suggested above, if you want to have graduated release for a passenger service, then the loco must have an appropriate graduated release brake controller. For a US steam loco of the mid 20th century the most likely brake controller would be:

Comment ( Westinghouse 5-ET, Westinghouse 6-ET, and Westinghouse 14-EL braking systems )
Comment ( System widely used on steam locomotives in USA from 1905 onwards. In later years the ‘Release’ function was blocked off to prevent accidental overcharge. )

Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.01 0.60
NumNotches ( 5
 Notch ( 0.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerOverchargeStart ) Comment ( RELEASE )
 Notch ( 0.2 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart ) Comment ( RUNNING )
 Comment ( Notch - Holding - releases train brakes but not loco brakes )
 Notch ( 0.6 0 TrainBrakesControllerHoldLappedStart  ) Comment ( LAP )
 Notch ( 0.8 0 TrainBrakesControllerFullServiceStart ) Comment ( APPLY )
 Notch ( 1.00 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ) Comment (EMERGENCY) ) )

Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.1 0.2
NumNotches ( 4
 Comment ( Notch - Release - releases loco brake but not train brake = bail off )
 Notch ( 0.2  0 EngineBrakesControllerReleaseStart )  Comment ( RUNNING )
 Notch ( 0.5  0 EngineBrakesControllerHoldLappedStart ) Comment ( LAP )
 Notch ( 0.7  0 EngineBrakesControllerFullServiceStart ) Comment ( SLOW APPLICATION )
 Notch ( 1.0  0 EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ) Comment ( QUICK APPLICATION ) ) )

I have attached descriptions of some other brake controllers for your information.

Attached File(s)

•  Brake Controllers.pdf (118K)
  Number of downloads: 179

[scottb613]

 darwins, on 14 October 2021 - 10:48 PM, said:

Firstly as already stated,

( a ) there appears to be nothing seriously wrong with the wagon section of the loco or with the tender or passenger cars.

( b ) replace "Triple_valve" with "Graduated_Release_Triple_Valve" for older passenger stock. (Use Distributor for more modern stock.) [You should not need to tick the box on the options tab.]

( c ) "The Guidelines for ORTS Brakes" will tell you what you need to know about correctly setting up Emergency Reservoirs for North American rolling stock. (I rather wish that those of us in the rest of the world could avoid having to include the non-existant emergency reservoirs in our Open Rails files!)

Two small points:

Applications and release rates of 50psi/s for brake cylinders are pretty fast! They probably need to be lower to spread the air usage and brake action more evenly along the length of the train. I generally use 20 for passenger stock and lower values for goods wagons.

ORTSDirectAdmissionValve is a feature of vacuum brake systems and should not need to be included in an air brake system.

You may need to check the settings in the engine part of the eng file.

Comment ( *** Braking system *** )

	BrakesTrainBrakeType( " " )
	BrakesEngineControllers( " " )

Comment ( == Compressor, Reservoir and General == )
	AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure(  )
	AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure(  )
	ORTSBrakePipeChargingRate (  )
	AirBrakesMainResVolume(  )
	ORTSMainResChargingRate (  )
	TrainPipeLeakRate (  )

Comment ( == Automatic Brake valve - Train == )
	TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure(  )
	ORTSTrainBrakesControllerMaxOverchargePressure (  )
	ORTSTrainBrakesControllerOverchargeEliminationRate (  )
	TrainBrakesControllerMaxQuickReleaseRate(  )
	TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate(  )
	TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate(  )
	TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate(  )
	TrainBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop(  )
	TrainBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction(  )

Finally as suggested above, if you want to have graduated release for a passenger service, then the loco must have an appropriate graduated release brake controller. For a US steam loco of the mid 20th century the most likely brake controller would be:

Comment ( Westinghouse 5-ET, Westinghouse 6-ET, and Westinghouse 14-EL braking systems )
Comment ( System widely used on steam locomotives in USA from 1905 onwards. In later years the ‘Release’ function was blocked off to prevent accidental overcharge. )

Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.01 0.60
NumNotches ( 5
 Notch ( 0.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerOverchargeStart ) Comment ( RELEASE )
 Notch ( 0.2 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart ) Comment ( RUNNING )
 Comment ( Notch - Holding - releases train brakes but not loco brakes )
 Notch ( 0.6 0 TrainBrakesControllerHoldLappedStart  ) Comment ( LAP )
 Notch ( 0.8 0 TrainBrakesControllerFullServiceStart ) Comment ( APPLY )
 Notch ( 1.00 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ) Comment (EMERGENCY) ) )

Brake_Engine ( 0 1 0.1 0.2
NumNotches ( 4
 Comment ( Notch - Release - releases loco brake but not train brake = bail off )
 Notch ( 0.2  0 EngineBrakesControllerReleaseStart )  Comment ( RUNNING )
 Notch ( 0.5  0 EngineBrakesControllerHoldLappedStart ) Comment ( LAP )
 Notch ( 0.7  0 EngineBrakesControllerFullServiceStart ) Comment ( SLOW APPLICATION )
 Notch ( 1.0  0 EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ) Comment ( QUICK APPLICATION ) ) )

I have attached descriptions of some other brake controllers for your information.

Hi Folks,

Thanks so much for your insights - honestly - I'm not a brake expert but I do tinker.

Yeah - I jacked up the value on charge/discharge while troubleshooting the menu option in question - even going to 100 didn't change the performance under Graduated Release - I do see it is WAY too fast now that I'm back in normal mode. Thanks for your suggestion - I'll give those values a try. I think I need to work brakes across my entire system and all the rolling stock I use. The Max Brake Force Values I got from using the calculator on Peter's website seem to halt the train way to easily with just a couple lbs of pressure change.

Regards,
Scott

[darwins]

Hi Scott,

Try these values for brake shoe friction
ORTSBrakeShoeFriction ( 0 0.31 1 0.30 2 0.28 3 0.27 4 0.26 5 0.25 7 0.24 8 0.23 9 0.22 12 0.21 14 0.20 17 0.19 20 0.18 24 0.17 29 0.16 34 0.15 40 0.14 47 0.13 55 0.12 66 0.11 84 0.10 115 0.09 160 0.09 )
Comment ( cast iron brake shoes )

Then, using Peter's calculator, remember each time to set

Coefficient of friction (Automatic Brake) as 0.31

Steam locomotives in UK were normally only braked on the driving wheels, so for British locos I put the weight on the driving wheels rather than the total weight into the calculator. I don't know if this would apply also to US locos.

[scottb613]

 darwins, on 15 October 2021 - 12:03 PM, said:

Hi Scott,

Try these values for brake shoe friction
ORTSBrakeShoeFriction ( 0 0.31 1 0.30 2 0.28 3 0.27 4 0.26 5 0.25 7 0.24 8 0.23 9 0.22 12 0.21 14 0.20 17 0.19 20 0.18 24 0.17 29 0.16 34 0.15 40 0.14 47 0.13 55 0.12 66 0.11 84 0.10 115 0.09 160 0.09 )
Comment ( cast iron brake shoes )

Then, using Peter's calculator, remember each time to set

Coefficient of friction (Automatic Brake) as 0.31

Steam locomotives in UK were normally only braked on the driving wheels, so for British locos I put the weight on the driving wheels rather than the total weight into the calculator. I don't know if this would apply also to US locos.

Hi Darwin,

You're a big help as always - greatly appreciated - sir. Let me give this a try. I'm using a single USRA boxcar as my test vehicle for freight - so it's easily modified.

While this may not help you - I found a value today for those big Westinghouse air compressors commonly used in the US. It's a 150 CuFt/Min - - - which plugs into another of Peter's calculators for charging time.

As best I can tell from modeling - US Locos are the same - only the driving wheels brake.

Here's the PDF on the Westinghouse Compressors if anyone needs it:
 AIR-BRAKE-WABCO-5026-CROSS-COMPOUND-AIR-COMPRESSORS-FEB1911.pdf (1.08MB)
Number of downloads: 195

Regards,
Scott