[superheatedsteam]

I am posting here as the issue I am experiencing is not exactly the same, but may be related.

I am experiencing an issue in OR when putting the default MSTS GP38-2 or SD40-2 diesel electric locomotive into the first stage of Dynamic Braking which should be, as I understand it for US based locomotives, the 'Set-up' position.

In OR. The first press of the '.' key changes the Dynamic brake indication in the F5 view from being a 'blank' indication to displaying '0%'. With Control confirmations enabled, 'Dynamic Setup' is displayed at the same time for several seconds before fading out. However the dynamic brake lever animation in the cabview as well as the dynamic brake indicator in the cabview both remain stationary. The operator has to wait approx 10 seconds for the next key press of '.' to perform/display any action. MSTS also forces this 10 second delay but I'm not sure if this is correct either. Is there a 10 second interlock period in the real world that prevents the driver from engaging setup?

After this forced 10 second delay the next application of the '.' key changes the 'Dynamic Brake' indication in the F5 view to show 11% and the dynamic brake lever in the cabview moves one notch and dynamic brake indicator in the cabview moves to the 'B' position (which is the 'Setup'position).

When I perform the same operation in MSTS, the first press of '.' after the throttle has been moved to 'Idle', moves the dynamic brake lever in the cab view 1 notch as well as changing the dynamic indicator from OFF to B which as I understand, it is expected and correct.

The issue here is that this is causing problems for dynamic lever animations in my 3D Cabviews that use a separate throttle and dynamic levers like the GP and SD locomotives with conventional AAR control stands.

Could someone please confirm my findings and I will report a bug. This occurs in OR v1.3.1 and several of the latest experimental versions.

Cheers,

Marek.

[Weter]

I don't use USA locomotive models often, but even with combined throttle/dynamic, all that you have described here, I confirm, behaves under ORTS in significant different way, than under MSTS. but the other question is, whether it wrong, or no.
Let's see, how it works IRL:
https://youtu.be/Tyo2EaHMmfw?t=148
Also, try to PM to engineerSteve, or Coonskin who worked on real dash2s

[ebnertra000]

There is a 'setup' phase of about 10 seconds to allow the electrical system to make necessary changes when switching between power and dynamic braking. As for the display problems, that may be the way the .eng files are set up. I think the default GP38-2 had a continuous dynamic handle instead of notched like it should, so the lever may not be sitting in the right spot to get the display to show correctly

[Weter]

If say more correct, the percentage for each of notches, defined at *.eng files must match the statements, defined for each of frames at *.cvf-file for visual image of cab control to follow its game settings.

[pschlik]

superheatedsteam, on 18 July 2021 - 01:02 AM, said:

MSTS also forces this 10 second delay but I'm not sure if this is correct either. Is there a 10 second interlock period in the real world that prevents the driver from engaging setup?

Since other folks haven't really addressed this, no there shouldn't be anything preventing the dynamic brake handle from being moved while setting up. This interlocking is something MSTS got wrong and was unfortunately transferred to Open Rails too.

In real life someone could just throw the dynamic brake handle right to 8 and it would just work. The whole "wait 10 seconds" thing is not enforced by the locomotive, it is merely advice that's stuck around from the 1960s when not waiting 10 seconds would actually be a problem.


So, being accurate, the first tap of the '.' key should move the dynamic brake to 11% (or whatever, depending on how the controls are configured) and should start the setup sequence, but with no force applied until setup is complete. At any point if ',' was pressed, the dynamic brake should return to 0% and be disabled (even if setup didn't complete).

[Weter]

And (what if someone didn't know?) the time of setup may be defined from 0 seconds to ... Within *.eng-file

Quote

...and the dynamic brake lever in the cabview moves one notch and dynamic brake indicator in the cabview moves to the 'B' position

But who can tell, what the notch B between 0 and 1 for, then?

[R H Steele]

pschlik, on 18 July 2021 - 09:52 AM, said:

...

In real life someone could just throw the dynamic brake handle right to 8 and it would just work. The whole "wait 10 seconds" thing is not enforced by the locomotive, it is merely advice that's stuck around from the 1960s when not waiting 10 seconds would actually be a problem....

<<<my emphasis.
This is important to remember, especially if you run early diesel locomotives in OR...to make sure they are set up with this delay, where appropriate. I believe OR will respond correctly to how the dynamic brakes are setup -- either with a delay appropriate for early machines, or with no delay appropriate for modern systems. I'm not entirely sure about all modern systems having no delay...I would like to hear or read more about that.

[ebnertra000]

The manual for early ES44s say to move the handle into the setup position, pause, and then move into braking. Since no minimum wait time is given, the pause probably need not be very long.

The manual for the SD50 (the newest of EMDs I have a manuaal for) says 10 seconds must be waited while idling before setup is engaged. It says this is done automatically when the throttle is placed in idle. There is no mention of wait time at all while in setup.

Looks to be some degree of variety out there

[pschlik]

Generally, "new" (as in, anything from the 1970s or later) locomotives will automatically set up the dynamic brakes only when it's safe to do so. The electronics will wait for power to come off, and only then switch to dynamic braking mode. This removes the need for the engineer to wait 10 seconds, but there's a few good reasons to wait anyway.

The actual switch from power to dynamic braking can be as short as a couple of seconds for DC locomotives with their relays and switches while being instantaneous on the solid-state electronics in an AC locomotive. The only thing slowing down the set-up is that you need to wait for the amps to drop to 0 before changing modes (of course, in Open Rails, the amps instantly drop to 0 when you idle the throttle so this is a sort of moot point in the sim).

[engineersteve]

I retired in 2012 so I will reply with my memories I can recall from those days.

In my engineers training in 1979 and the Air Brake and Train Handling Book that was current when I retired there was never an explanation about the 10 second rule.

I ran mostly the GE-9s and the EMD SD-70 MACs.

Knowing your situational awareness was the key factor in running a train. Knowing when to get power in to climb a hill and knowing when to go into dynamic braking as you crest the hill and start down.

On all types of engines equipped with dynamic the electronics would not allow the engineer to hasten the 10 second rule. As soon as you went to idle you could immediately go into DYNAMIC BRAKE SET UP. That was where I would start counting my 10 seconds. If you moved it into Dynamic BRAKE RUN 1 or higher before the 10 seconds was up it would not do anything. However, moving it to FULL DYNAMIC RUN 8 before the 10 seconds was up that would be a very bad thing to do. After the 10 seconds was over it would put all the retardation in a very short time and the resulting run in of forces would not be favorable, also it could cause the wheels on the rail to lose adhesion and start sliding which would make flat spots. It was against the rules. The rules called for several seconds before advancing to next higher or lower position.

The dynamic brakes I have found in Open rails default settings are really not accurate. I operated trains but I don't know diddly on how to change the settings in the program to make it more realistic.