Elvas Tower: Electric Train Supply - Elvas Tower

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Electric Train Supply Just an interrogation... Rate Topic: -----

#21 User is offline   mozdonyos 

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Posted 24 July 2021 - 11:00 AM

In my opinion, electric train heating should be put in order for the time being, and other things should not be mixed in here, because then the point is lost.

Russian railways have cars that can be heated with a gas stove, heated with high voltage (1500.3000), can go with a battery charging heating line, or a generator driven from the axles.
The range of possibilities is endless. 🙂

#22 User is offline   darwins 

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Posted 24 July 2021 - 11:32 AM

Quote

This is already available (without scripts): I added a parameter called Engine(ORTSElectricTrainSupply(DieselEngineMinRpm to set this minimum rotation speed.
(And this is the moment when I see that I forgot to talk about it in the manual...)

Thanks will have to add that in next.
Where the train has two locomotives is there a way for only one of them to provide the ETS?




#23 User is offline   Weter 

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Posted 24 July 2021 - 11:33 AM

Never heared about gas stoves. (Only coal. Service carriages and restaurants used diesel fuel boilers and stoves.)
Only about 3kV special heating line (separate from batteries lo-voltage circuits).
Really doubtful-as the gas is hi-explosive.

#24 User is offline   mozdonyos 

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Posted 24 July 2021 - 12:39 PM

Of course, heating is not with gas, but with diesel.

I'm sorry I use a translator and he wrote it.

#25 User is offline   darwins 

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Posted 25 July 2021 - 05:45 AM

Today I added in the DieselEngineMinRpm parameter

ORTSPowerSupply ( "Default.cs" )
ORTSPowerOnDelay ( 5s )
ORTSAuxPowerOnDelay ( 10s )
ORTSElectricTrainSupply(DieselEngineMinRpm ( 1000 ) )


With two identical locomotives, one at either end of the train I was very pleased to see this:
https://i.imgur.com/kGrNCxP.jpg

If I look at the power output of the engines

DieselPowerTab (
0	0
750	131243
751	218753
1000	340039
1150	555919
1350	1010796
1500	1477232
 )


The engine running at 1000 rpm is producing 340 kW at the crankshaft so 240 kW consumption which is 70% load, or if I add in generator losses perhaps 75% load.
The second engine idling in notch 0 at 750 rpm has an output of 131 kW so 31 kW is 24% load (or maybe up to 28 or 30% with generator losses).
In place of that we see:

https://i.imgur.com/6Su8NZ2.jpg

The "ETS" engine is running at 40% Load and the idling engine is running at 320% load. Apart from reporting this correctly there should surely be something that prevents the load on any engine exceeding 100% (or better still exceeding 94% as we can reasonably expect 6% generator losses in the generator(s) or alternator(s).

The other issue [already mentioned in a previous post] is that we have power consumed mentioned twice, but power produced at the crankshaft is not mentioned at all. It would be good to know that one diesel engine is producing 340 kW and the other producing 131 kW. The display might look something like this

Power 340kW 240kW Load [75%] 1000rpm
Power 131kW 31kW Load [30%] 750rpm


The next issue comes with the calculation of traction power
https://i.imgur.com/zKmqmzn.jpg


Both engines are running at full power, delivering 1477 kW at the crankshaft. The maximum output of the traction alternator is 1353 kW, reduced to 1153 kW if providing ETS. (ETS alternator has a maximum output of 280 kW.)
So we would expect the front loco to have less power at the rail. About 200 kW less power at the rail. This is not what is seen. Both locos are producing 1222 kW at the rail (The correct output according to the ORTS tractive force curves). In this case we might expect to see

Power 1222 kW Force 66.0 kN .... Power 1377kW 1477kW Load 96.0% 1500rpm
Power 1022 kW Force -56.2 kN ... Power 1377kW 1477kW Load 96.0% 1500rpm


Some care is needed here as in this case the power at the rail is only reduced when the available power is less then the sum of the ETS power and the power that would be used for traction according to the tractive force curves. This is illustrated below:

https://i.imgur.com/vdmG2OJ.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/lxG6bbG.jpg



#26 User is offline   Csantucci 

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Posted 26 July 2021 - 11:47 AM

I have a question in applying the new Electric Train Supply feature. What I need is that when putting the master key in the ON state, a timer starts, and when it expires a diagnostic monitor lights up in the .cvf. Also the master key is shown in the .cvf file.
I had no problems in writing a script file for the Power Supply, so it would not be a problem to insert a timer in it. But when it expires, how can I command a .cvf control? In the TCS script support there are generic TCS .cvf controls that can be used for that, but the power supply script support does not provide this possibility.

#27 User is offline   darwins 

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Posted 30 July 2021 - 11:32 AM

Another variation on train heating:

Quote

It was later decided that as the Mark 2 stock was dual (steam or electric) heated, to convert half the 27/1 fleet to electric train heat, by replacing the train heating boiler with a Deutz 8-cylinder, air-cooled diesel engine and alternator. The conversions were then classified as Class 27/2, and were used on one end of the train, with a 27/1 on the other.


https://en.wikipedia...h_Rail_Class_27

A totally separate diesel engine and generator just to provide the electricity supply for the train, but located inside a locomotive rather than in a separate HEP van.

Any suggestions on how to model this one in OR?

#28 User is offline   darwins 

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Posted 31 July 2021 - 03:12 AM

 Weter, on 31 July 2021 - 02:15 AM, said:

So, in UK too, there are separate carriages, not for passengers, but having powerful diesel-generator for supplying electric-heated boilers of each coach in the train?


We do not have these in UK nowadays. I have seen them in Malaysia and Indonesia. I think they were or are used also in Australia, Canada and USA.

In the 1970s and 1980s during the changeover from steam heating to electric heating in UK there were some withdrawn locomotives that were converted to provide electric train heating. They were called 'Ethel's (a girl's name in UK) - Electric Train Heating Locomotives - ETH L.

Some pictures are here http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/ETHELs

#29 User is offline   Weter 

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Posted 31 July 2021 - 04:23 AM

Malaysia and Indonesia have so cold winters...Finland and Hungary do have such carriages too.
hi-power wagon generators make additional resistance to traction, acting as dynamic brakes do.
So it used for conditioning by Ammen-Dorf, but for heating-that is too much.
And it would be useless during stops

#30 User is offline   darwins 

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Posted 01 August 2021 - 02:53 AM

So my first thought on the loco with the extra diesel engine for the ETH generator was to try putting in two engines, one for driving the train and the other running at constant speed to provide the electric power for the train, like this:


Comment ( *************************** Diesel Prime Mover (Engine) ***************************
             	Included in this section - Information about the diesel engine, etc
      	*********************************************************************************** )

Comment ( * Engine 1 Prime Mover Sulzer 6LDA28B of 1250bhp @ 750rpm * )
Comment ( * Diesel Engine performance estimated from BR class 24 test report * )
Comment ( * Engine 2 ETS supply engine Deutz F8L 413 of 172hp @ 2150rpm * )

ORTSDieselEngines ( 2

Diesel(
IdleRPM ( 325 )
MaxRPM ( 750 )
StartingRPM ( 300 )
StartingConfirmRPM ( 350 )
ChangeUpRPMpS ( 50 )
ChangeDownRPMpS ( 40 )
RateOfChangeUpRPMpSS ( 10 )
RateOfChangeDownRPMpSS ( 10 )
MaximalPower ( 1250hp )
IdleExhaust ( 4.06 ) Comment ( 4-stroke = rpm / 80 )
MaxExhaust ( 9.37 ) Comment ( 4-stroke = rpm / 80 )
ExhaustDynamics ( 1.5 )
ExhaustDynamicsDown ( 0.5 )
ExhaustColor ( 11464650 )
ExhaustTransientColor ( 11141418 )
DieselPowerTab (
0	0
325	82027
330	147649
400	242352
450	316922
500	402678
550	490671
650	700212
750	932125
)
DieselConsumptionTab (
0	0
325	22
330	41
400	61
450	79
500	100
550	123
650	178
750	244
)
ThrottleRPMTab (
0	325
10	330
100	750
)
DieselTorqueTab (
0	0
325	2408
330	4268
400	5780
450	6719
500	7683
550	8511
650	10277
750	11857
 )
MinOilPressure ( 40 )
MaxOilPressure ( 90 )
MaxTemperature ( 120 )
Cooling	( 3 )
TempTimeConstant ( 720 )
OptTemperature ( 90 )
IdleTemperature	( 70 )
 )

Diesel(
IdleRPM ( 600 )
MaxRPM ( 2300 )
StartingRPM ( 500 )
StartingConfirmRPM ( 650 )
ChangeUpRPMpS ( 50 )
ChangeDownRPMpS ( 40 )
RateOfChangeUpRPMpSS ( 10 )
RateOfChangeDownRPMpSS ( 10 )
MaximalPower ( 132kW )
IdleExhaust ( 7.50 ) Comment ( 4-stroke = rpm / 80 )
MaxExhaust ( 28.7 ) Comment ( 4-stroke = rpm / 80 )
ExhaustDynamics ( 1.2 )
ExhaustDynamicsDown ( 0.7 )
ExhaustColor ( 11464650 )
ExhaustTransientColor ( 11141418 )
DieselPowerTab (
0	0
600	9000
1500	104500
2150	128000
2300	132000
)
DieselConsumptionTab (
0	0
600	3
1500	34
2150	42
2300	43
)
ThrottleRPMTab (
0	2149
100	2151
)
DieselTorqueTab (
0	0
600	143
1500	665
2150	568
2300	548
 )
MinOilPressure ( 40 )
MaxOilPressure ( 90 )
MaxTemperature ( 120 )
Cooling	( 3 )
TempTimeConstant ( 720 )
OptTemperature ( 90 )
IdleTemperature	( 70 )
 )
)


There is no difference though between the two diesel exhausts

Effects (
DieselSpecialEffects  (
Exhaust1  (
0.543 3.818 -1.14
0.284 0.958 0.008
0.3 )
Exhaust2  (
0.67 3.84 -4.37
0 1 0
0.3 )
) )


Both behave as exhausts from the Prime Mover. Is there any way to specify that different exhausts belong to different engines?

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