[Jean-Paul]

Hi !
I've just tested 1.3.1.378, and, very interested in new ability to figure ETS consumption on a Diesel Engine, I tried to configure it. After a few hesitations, I obtained a significant result : carriages are now consuming power from the Diesel engine. But (with me, there's always a "but..", I know ! :pleasantry: ), I noticed that power is substracted directly from the Diesel engine, and not from the alternator. All my engines are fitted with tractive effort curves, as conform as possible, so, if power "at Diesel" decreases with ETS consumption, tractive effort is not affected and remains the same as when ETS is disconnected. Yield of transmission, by this way, is very often > 100 %, what is not realistic.
Can you suggest me a modification in which ETS power is substracted from electric power given by alternator, and not from crude Diesel engine power ? (what occures in reality, if Diesel locomotive is not fitted with an HEP auxiliary group).
I'm sure that there's a trivial solution, but I recognize I'm not so fluent with practice of programmation to write it correctly !
Thank you for your help !
Cheers,
Jean-Paul

[ErickC]

Well, anything providing electric power at the head end without an auxiliary diesel engine is going to be running on a totally different throttle schedule, so it will require a different ENG file and sounds anyway. I'd wager changing the traction output for that ENG file will suffice.

[Weter]

AFAIK, there were "full diesel power" and "max power" statements at *.eng-file, as well as compressor wattage.
First (excuse me, if I called its name wrong) is whole diesel power, partially used to locomotive self-demands as pumps, fans, lamps, etc. (we have listed only compressor now, but they say, it's actually not working too) and the rest of which only can be used to feed tractive motors. So all auxiliary consumers (as train heating) must be considered within the first statement.
Anyway, the electric power, needed for carriages heating is being subtracted from diesel power. The trick is, this way, in defining it correctly, that it must be substracted from full power, but not power of tractive generator (as in real life, the separate generator is attached for heating electricity producing). The other variant is auxiliary power unit, but I have no practiced with such design of locomotives, so can say nothing. The only once it was intended to implement at prototype locomotive, which was built only as two units batch. It had two generators in one case: the double-sectioned alternator for tractive motors propelling and auxiliary generator for train heating. In common, passenger electro haulers have heating power output, but diesel-hauled trains are heated by coal-burning boilers, heating water of the individual carriage or whole diesel-train.

[Jean-Paul]

Weter, on 17 July 2021 - 05:09 AM, said:

AFAIK, there were "full diesel power" and "max power" statements at *.eng-file, as well as compressor wattage.
First (excuse me, if I called its name wrong) is whole diesel power, partially used to locomotive self-demands as pumps, fans, lamps, etc. (we have listed only compressor now, but they say, it's actually not working too) and the rest of which only can be used to feed tractive motors. So all auxiliary consumers (as train heating) must be considered within the first statement.
Anyway, the electric power, needed for carriages heating is being subtracted from diesel power. The trick is, this way, in defining it correctly, that it must be substracted from full power, but not power of tractive generator (as in real life, the separate generator is attached for heating electricity producing). The other variant is auxiliary power unit, but I have no practiced with such design of locomotives, so can say nothing. The only once it was intended to implement at prototype locomotive, which was built only as two units batch. It had two generators in one case: the double-sectioned alternator for tractive motors propelling and auxiliary generator for train heating. In common, passenger electro haulers have heating power output, but diesel-hauled trains are heated by coal-burning boilers, heating water of the individual carriage or whole diesel-train.

Hi !
I agree with you, of course. But a Diesel motor doesn't produce an electric current, only a mechanical force which is converted by an alternator, or a generator, for a part to provide auxiliary power to pumps, compressors, lightings and ETS, and major part to electric motors, with a global yield of app. 80-85 %. So, after a few trials with defining of an ORTSMaxDieselPower in adequation with effective values for a "disconnected ETS" engine, I can confirm that tractive effort values are those defined by tractive effort curves, even after connection of ETS. In this case (around 260 kW of ETS consumption), with an initial MaxPower for traction of 2245 kW, remains theoritically 2245-260 = 1985kW for traction. So, very simply, OR matches with 1985 kW of Max Power, but continues to produce tractive effort corresponding to 2245 kW (it follows tractive effort curves), which gives a yield of around 113 % ! And if I had added 50 carriages, with a consumption of around 1950 kW, I would have obtained probably à 6000 % yield !!
So, I deduce that this new ability is not compatible with tractive effort curves, until proven otherwise. Do you agree with me ?
Thanks for your help !
Cheers,
Jean-Paul

[Weter]

I agree, that up to 20% of power is consumed to self-needs. And part of it directly in mechanical form, the rest-by rotating auxiliary electric machines which are self-needs generator, main generator's exaltator and sub-exaltator in common, and maybe some else. Many of fans and pumps have mechanical transmission, or hydrostatic, not electric. While main generator is usually not used for auxiliary circuits feeding. The latter need stable voltage, (we forgot to mention battery charging, which demands strictly DC, so alternator is completely inapplicable for that) but traction motors-variable.
As for the rest, pardon moi, I didn't have the need to experiment with it in ORTS, and, shame to confess, heared about it from you today the first time.
Well, if it's so, as you discovered, the function have to be corrected by developers to be adequate.
It was pleasure to talk with you.
Cheers.

[Jean-Paul]

Weter, on 17 July 2021 - 09:38 AM, said:

I agree, that up to 20% of power is consumed to self-needs. And part of it directly in mechanical form, the rest-by rotating auxiliary electric machines which are self-needs generator, main generator's exaltator and sub-exaltator in common, and maybe some else. Many of fans and pumps have mechanical transmission, or hydrostatic, not electric. While main generator is usually not used for auxiliary circuits feeding. The latter need stable voltage, (we forgot to mention battery charging, which demands strictly DC, so alternator is completely inapplicable for that) but traction motors-variable.
As for the rest, pardon moi, I didn't have the need to experiment with it in ORTS, and, shame to confess, heared about it from you today the first time.
Well, if it's so, as you discovered, the function have to be corrected by developers to be adequate.
It was pleasure to talk with you.
Cheers.

Hi !
It was also a real pleasure for me ! I hope somebody will find a solution. I explored source code, but didn't find, alas, the "matching point" allowing to modify the calculation of restituted effort. Perhaps tomorrow ! :victory:
Cheers.

[Serana]

Jean-Paul, on 17 July 2021 - 11:20 AM, said:

Hi !
It was also a real pleasure for me ! I hope somebody will find a solution. I explored source code, but didn't find, alas, the "matching point" allowing to modify the calculation of restituted effort. Perhaps tomorrow ! :victory:
Cheers.

Hi,

I was the one who created the ETS.
Don't hesitate to contact me via private messages so that we can talk about this (in French :D).

[Weter]

Well, this part needs further development. Cooling system, traction motors ventilation, self-demand power consumption variation.
If you interested how it looks in real life, here is a video:
The author was asked by subscribers to show, how the function of auxiliary generator transits from starting engine to auxiliary power conversion.
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=hmfnyrKwaWs
It can be heared clearly during the start sequence and after few seconds of diesel began working stable.
The alternator is in the very bottom. On it, the auxiliary generator-starteur (left, bigger) of 50kW and alternator's exaltator (right, smaller) are mounted. <The CVS fan's assembly is behind.> They both are driven by the diesel through a gear-set.
0:30 The oil is pumped to diesel by pump, powered by battery during 1.5 minutes. The fuel pump is turned on as well, to provide fuel flow and pressure for hi-pressure injectors. The oil and fuel pressure must be gained. 1:28 Then, the auxiliary generator is connected to battery and rotates crankshaft. 1:45 After latter have gained defined speed, the fuel flow by injecting hi pressure pumps are allowed by governor and diesel can try to start. 1:50
1:55 After the speed grow further, fall down, and at last, become stable, the supply of starter is interrupted and, after defined delay, it will be exaltated for producing auxiliary power.
The sound is loud as far as electric compressor turned on immediately and the gear under resistance make excessive noise. After pneumatic system been charged and compressor turned off, 2:35 the sound became quietly.

[mozdonyos]

Hi!

I would like to ask about train heating.
In Hungary, for locomotives with train heating, when the train heating is switched on, the speed of the diesel engine increases from idle to an increased speed.
More practically, the idle speed is 650 l / min with the train heating on at 1034 l / min.
How could this be done in OR?
Because right now, if I turn it on, the speed stays idle (650) in the same way, and that's not real.

Thank you for your answers and help. :)

[Laci1959]

Jean-Paul, on 17 July 2021 - 04:50 AM, said:

Hi !
I've just tested 1.3.1.378, and, very interested in new ability to figure ETS consumption on a Diesel Engine, I tried to configure it. After a few hesitations, I obtained a significant result : carriages are now consuming power from the Diesel engine. But (with me, there's always a "but..", I know ! :pleasantry: ), I noticed that power is substracted directly from the Diesel engine, and not from the alternator. All my engines are fitted with tractive effort curves, as conform as possible, so, if power "at Diesel" decreases with ETS consumption, tractive effort is not affected and remains the same as when ETS is disconnected. Yield of transmission, by this way, is very often > 100 %, what is not realistic.
Can you suggest me a modification in which ETS power is substracted from electric power given by alternator, and not from crude Diesel engine power ? (what occures in reality, if Diesel locomotive is not fitted with an HEP auxiliary group).
I'm sure that there's a trivial solution, but I recognize I'm not so fluent with practice of programmation to write it correctly !
Thank you for your help !
Cheers,
Jean-Paul

Hello
Locomotive factories provide two types of performance data. One is all the power that the diesel engine produces or the electric locomotive takes off the overhead line. The other is the power delivered on the towbar and the torque delivered on the towbar. You can read it later in chapter 8.2 of My link . For diesel locomotives, two values can be entered. Unfortunately, electric locomotives don't know this yet.

Regards laci 1959