[trainzman]

<Admin comment>
Helping Matt here

What an interesting discussion. Thanks, guys, for sharing all those great insights!

[scottb613]

Hi Folks,

And we need cylinder cocks for articulated locomotives - as it's pretty disappointing to run Derek's massive Mallet without functioning cylinder cocks.
:)

Regards,
Scott

[ATSF3751]

All right let me chime in here for a sec. Here is what should be done for steam locomotives to improve the steam/smoke effect.

This is what needs to be done with cylinder cocks

- articulated locomotives
- double headed steam locomotive
- AI steam locomotives
- Steam blast out of the cylinder cocks

I do not agree with having the cylinder cocks open when you start the game just because they are not always open when you start out. Yes after you sit for awhile they need to be on to drain the water out of the cylinders but once the cylinders are good and hot they are shut off. An experienced engineer can tell just by how the steam sounds coming out of the cylinders if they are ready to be shut off or not. It all depends on how long you have been sitting from what I am aware of. If sitting for only a short period of time they are not always open at the start up.

When your fire is hot and only sitting for a short period of time you can take off without them being used and when sitting for 15 Min or longer is when they are used to drain the water out of the cylinders but it all depends on engineer preference. Remember you burn less coal and water when your fire is hot then when your fire is colder so the hotter the fire is the less condensation there is to build up and the more steam you will have.

Another thing to consider is the cylinder cocks are usually open as well when coasting or running down grade because you are creating less steam and your fire is not as hot because the engine is not working as hard. In turn creating more condensation to build up in the cylinders.

To be honest all steam effects should work with all steam locomotives in the game. No matter if its Player, AI or a double header. The way its set up at the moment really takes a lot of the realism and fun out of the game when running steam. I will explain further what I mean when I say this.

All steam locomotives should be able to do the following independently.

- Blowdowns
- Blow there whistles
- Working cylinder cocks
- Working pop off valves
- air pump smoke and other random smoke effects that are programed for that locomotive

When running double header you don't just see the lead locomotive blowing its whistle do you? You see both locomotives working in tandem and the engineers using the whistle as a communication device and some times just for fun. Cylinder cocks, blow downs and pop off valves don't just work on the lead locomotive either when running double header. They work independently of the trailing locomotive as well.

Another thing that I have noticed is that the Factor of Adhesion/slipping only works on the lead locomotive when double heading and one more thing to think about is some times in double headers the lead locomotive or trailing locomotive is doing all the work and not both of them.

Brandon

Here are a few videos of what I am talking about when it comes to double headed steam locomotives

https://www.youtube....namoProductions

https://www.youtube....Videos%E2%84%A2

https://www.youtube....el=BrickishRail

https://www.youtube....=CoasterFan2105

https://www.youtube....nel=kschmidt626

https://www.youtube....nel=kschmidt626

[darwins]

A question to those of you in USA - when did US steam locomotives cease to have dampers?


"Manual of Instruction for the Economical Management of Locomotives" George Baker (1889) instructs firemen "To prevent or stop blowing off, increase boiler feed, or, if necessary, drop dampers."


"A Study of the Locomotive Front End" Everett Young (1933) states "Ashpan dampers are not generally used in this country."


In the later "Locomotive Firing Course" (1944) at the Railway Archive site, there is not even a mention of them.


Was it perhaps to do with the increase in size or US locos? How about other countries with very large steam locos like USSR and China - did they have dampers?


Something that had appeared in USA in the meantime was a device called the smoke consumer - does anyone know when this began to be fitted to engines?

[QJ-6811]

 darwins, on 15 February 2021 - 11:35 AM, said:

Was it perhaps to do with the increase in size or US locos? How about other countries with very large steam locos like USSR and China - did they have dampers?

Regarding China I know that these locomotives (QJ, JS, SY, RM) have dampers. I was surprised that these were operated from the outside (like during a long stop) and therefore not from the CAB.

[Traindude]

 darwins, on 15 February 2021 - 11:35 AM, said:

Something that had appeared in USA in the meantime was a device called the smoke consumer - does anyone know when this began to be fitted to engines?

The smoke consumer (aka "over fire jets") first came into use I believe in the 1920s-30's. However, its use varied from railroad to railroad. For example, the New York Central and the Chesapeake & Ohio used them extensively (look up any recent videos of C&O engine 1309 and note the cylindrical objects on the side of the firebox), others used them only occasionally.

[joe_star]

 NickonWheels, on 18 January 2021 - 07:13 AM, said:

ORTS already utilises a line where you could enter BTU values, but under the current system this is not used properly, same with the calculated burn rate/feed rate.

Hmmm interesting. It does have an effect on the firing rate and fire mass though, as I just tested

One thing that irks me is that it’s also being specified in the eng file, just like the coal & water mass. A locomotive may use different fuels in depending where it is. I would think this parameter would be better served in the trk file of a route

[ATSF3751]

Here is some good info on blowdown and how it affects the locomotive.

Sorry I haven't been on for awhile guys. My PC took a junk last weekend and trying to get it fixed up and running again. Hopefully sometime this week.

Brandon
https://www.trainord....php?10,3217305

[Traindude]

A few ideas I'd like to chime in regarding articulated locomotives comes to mind--I have already discussed these in the "New Model Format" thread but I will repeat them here as a reminder:

 scottb613, on 07 February 2021 - 05:55 AM, said:

Hi Folks,

And we need cylinder cocks for articulated locomotives - as it's pretty disappointing to run Derek's massive Mallet without functioning cylinder cocks.
:)

Regards,
Scott

I agree that's a good idea, but we need to keep in mind that the front cylinder cock emitters need to "pivot" relative to the front chassis when the locomotive goes around a curve, and the rear cylinder cock emitters need to "pivot" relative to the rear chassis. Therefore, we need a system that determines which half of the chassis.

The same system I am proposing can also be used to determine how to "allign" lighting effects. Case in point:

On most articulated locomotives, the headlight is mounted on the front chassis. This is the prefferred arrangement for articulated locomotives. The famous Union Pacific "Big Boy" falls under this category:
Photo of Big Boy with Headlight Attached to Front Chassis

However, on some articulated locomotives, the headlight is mounted on the smokebox in much the same manner as a rigid-frame locomotive. Early Mallets (B&O's "Old Maude"), Logging Mallets, and even a few Challengers on the UP and D&H fall into this category:
Photo of Logging Mallet with headlight mounted on the Smokebox

Here's a drawing illustrating the effects of different headlight mounting arrangements on articulated locomotives. As you can see, mounting the headlight to the front chassis has the advantage of illuminating a greater percentage of a curve:


Therefore, if we develop a system that can align light and smoke/steam emitters to the respective chassis halves, so they "pivot" correctly when the locomotive goes around a curve, then that would be a big boon to us.

Incidentally, in regards to articulateds, I have proposed, in the "New Model Format" thread, a way to deviate from the standard MSTS-style hierarchy and eliminate the need for multi-section models. Here's sort of the way I envision it:


I'm not sure how Derek set up his loco, but this sorta gives you an idea how I think it should be set up--"MAIN" is used to define the hinge pin between the two chassis halves, these two halves are parented to "MAIN", and the respective wheels and bogies for each chassis half are parented to the chassis half instead of "MAIN".

Does this make sense to anybody?

[darwins]

I am rather confused about what is happening with articulated locomotives. (Don't forget many articulated locomotives come in three parts.) I was told some time ago:
See this thread.

Quote

The barrier of bogie numbers was removed a while ago. AFAIK the situation now is that OR will recognize more than two bogies per vehicle provided that they are all named properly. I think we still have the limit of 3 wheelsets per bogie if the Wheels 11,12,13 etc is used. Wheels1 et.al. does not have this limit, but must be manually animated.

However it seems that no one can explain how to name the parts properly.

I tried this:

https://i.imgur.com/I4OQgmD.jpg

with two different naming systems:

Main is parent of Bogie 1 and Bogie 2
Bogie 1 has Wheels 11, 12, 13, 14
Bogie 1 is parent of Bogie 11 and Bogie 12
Bogie 11 has Wheels 111, 112
Bogie 12 has Wheels 121
Bogie 2 has Wheels 21, 22, 23, 24
Bogie 2 is parent of Bogie 21 and Bogie 22
Bogie 21 has Wheels 211
Bogie 22 has Wheels 221, 222


Main is parent of Bogie 1 and Bogie 2
Bogie 1 has Wheels 11, 12, 13, 14
Bogie 1 is parent of Bogie 3 and Bogie 4
Bogie 3 has Wheels 31, 32
Bogie 4 has Wheels 41
Bogie 2 has Wheels 21, 22, 23, 24
Bogie 2 is parent of Bogie 5 and Bogie 6
Bogie 5 has Wheels 51
Bogie 6 has Wheels 61, 62


The result was identical in both cases with the sub-bogies and their wheels misplaced.

https://i.imgur.com/JaIEsFF.jpg