[ATSF3751]

Hey everyone,

As we start seeing more advanced models of steam locomotives come out and myself building the Milwaukee Road 261 at the moment a couple of ideas dawned on me while I have been building it and testing it out. I have been reading through the Open Rails manual for more physics, smoke and other animations that could be added to steam locomotives and I have added many of them to this model.

One thing I came across was the Boiler Blow down feature. However on many late steam locomotives there were 2 of them that were controlled simultaneously. One for each side of the boiler. Right now we have it set up so that both sides go off at the same time. Would it be possible to make it so one could control either side independently from one another?

Something that has always bugged me with Open Rails is how the exhaust just floats out of the stack even at full throttle and doesn't have the power to shoot out of the stack like it should. The throttle just has more smoke float out the more you open the throttle when in reality it should really shoot more up in the sky. This is one major flaw I find annoying in Open Rails when all of the other Train Simulator programs all have this feature to a point. I know it takes a lot of work to do this but it would be a major improvement if it was done. This also goes along with the blower while standing still. The smoke has improved but it could be so much better with a little more added to it. If we could get two different types of smoke would even be better. One for the applyances and another for the stack and cylinders. The smoke needs to be dependent on how much the throttle is open and how hard it is working. The way it is being fired and how much the blower is on. Of course every locomotive would need to have the stack and rotation of the wheels synced but if we have sound that can be synced to the wheels it should be that much more to sync the smoke with it as well.

Another thought is having more steam emit in cold or damn weather VS warm/hot weather like in real life.

Would it be possible to add boosters that actually work for steam locomotives as many steam locomotives had them here in the US.

Here in the US many steam locomotives also have more then one steam whistle. As a matter of fact the Milwaukee Road 261 has 2 whistles and an air horn. It would be nice to be able to change whistles and air horn without having to make a whole new SMS file just for that. Many other steam locomotives also have air horns on them along with steam whistles. Some steam locomotives have 2 or 3 different whistles on them. Yes you can use the sander for the air horn but it doesn't make sense any more with Open Rails especially when you need the sander and the air horn goes off.

These are just a few ideas I had and I am sure there are many more that others could come up with.

Brandon

[ATSF3751]

The last thing I see is from 2019 called Steam Locomotive Exhaust and the last one to comment in it was myself so I thought I would make a new topic hoping to shed light on it again!

Brandon

[ATSF3751]

I see, but that thread was also started in 2017 and just recently got bumped to talk about things other then Stack exhaust from the looks of it.

Brandon

[ATSF3751]

Its all good. Not a problem at all. Just feel a new thread would be good to get the juices flowing again and give the Open Rails team some more ideas for Steam Locomotives then just exhaust. There is so much that should and could be done in the steam department that Open Rails is lacking. I am sure I am not the only one that notices it either.

Brandon

[Traindude]

If you don't mind me adding to this discussion, I made a proposal not long ago to allow for specifying different boiler-feeding devices on locomotives. So instead of OR acting as if all steam locomotives have one live steam injector and one exhaust steam injector (common in Europe and the UK, not always appropriate in the US), you could specify your loco to have, for example, one live steam injector and a feedwater heater system (in the case of a large loco) or two live steam injectors (for smaller, older locos).

This could potentially be done by using simple, generic terms to describe the equipment, such as "Nonlifting_Live_Steam_Injector", "Centrifugal_Cold_Water_Pump", or "Open_Type_Feedwater_Heater" in parameters called ORTSSteamWaterSystem1EquipmentType and ORTSSteamWaterSystem2EquipmentType. (Just like brake equipment is specified using the BrakeEquipmentType parameter.)

[Laci1959]

Additional vomiting, if I take back the handle of the handlebars while driving, the smoke should decrease. It is listed as a Cutoff entry in the eng file.
The amount of steam entering the cylinders is determined by the steering lever and the regulator together.
Sorry if you have difficulty understanding Google translate.

[scottb613]

Hi Folks,

Yeah - I think Peter is the only one doing any steam development on the code and we’ve had a substantial amount of offline discussion about it. While Peter - at the time - was willing to make changes and improvements to the code - the one thing he insisted upon was using hard data to make the changes. That data is hard to come by and I’ve attempted to research much of it myself - so if you have something you want changed with the physics - I’d suggest doing some research to obtain the data.

From my testing - I don’t think the injectors have any effect on steam production while they had a substantial effect in MSTS. You had to be very careful in MSTS when you added water and from which injector - as it could kill you on a climb. ORTS doesn’t care - run one or both continually and you will make steam just fine.

Regards,
Scott

[ATSF3751]

Thanks Scott,

I have also talked to Peter as well and I am willing to help him out as much as I am able too. However I do not know coding so I wont be able to help out in that respect but obtaining hard data I could look for. The major thing that I have been asking for is the smoke. We need 2 different smoke/steam effects. One for the appliances and the other for the stack and cylinders. That is one major thing that really bugs me about Open Rails and that fact that the smoke does not blast out of the stack when you have the throttle wide open. For the smoke to look right it needs to be effected by wind, throttle, how it is being fired, and the blower.

Brandon

[scottb613]

ATSF3751, on 17 January 2021 - 06:41 AM, said:

Thanks Scott,

I have also talked to Peter as well and I am willing to help him out as much as I am able too. However I do not know coding so I wont be able to help out in that respect but obtaining hard data I could look for. The major thing that I have been asking for is the smoke. We need 2 different smoke/steam effects. One for the appliances and the other for the stack and cylinders. That is one major thing that really bugs me about Open Rails and that fact that the smoke does not blast out of the stack when you have the throttle wide open. For the smoke to look right it needs to be effected by wind, throttle, how it is being fired, and the blower.

Brandon

Hi Brandon,

I think Peter is the only ORTS developer changing the steam code - he was willing to do all the coding - what he asked of other participants was data research and methodic testing of changes. I'm not sure if he's still active as I haven't noticed any recent posts from him.

To the best of my knowledge - Robert was the only ORTS developer who had a firm grasp on the particle system to make substantial changes to effects. I believe he left the community long ago. It took him a while to get where we are today. One thing that improves effects (if you don't have it) is Marc's smoke effect texture update on 3DTrains - it's far better than default.

I'm not sure how large the active ORTS Development Team is but I'm sure we could use more talent.

Regards,
Scott

[scottb613]

Hi Folks,


Since this is a list - a couple of mine:

• Steam Locomotive Wheel Slip Animation Needs to be Retarded to Behave More Prototypical.
  
• Steam Locomotive Per Axle Wheel Radius (many steam locomotives have different sized wheel on different trucks - sometimes on the same truck).
  
• Feedwater System Physics.
  
• AI Train Automatic Cylinder Cock Operation (say anytime slower than 15 MPH?).
  
• Cylinder Cocks for Articulated Locomotives.
  
• Improved Injector Physics.
  
• More Light Switches to Accommodate Class Lights.
  
• Booster Trucks.
  
• Rod Animation on Tenders for Booster Trucks (haven't tested - maybe it works already?).
  
• Fire Modeling Physics.
  
• Ability to Define Each Headout Initial Position/Direction in ENG File.

Regards,
Scott

[copperpen]

The steam locomotive exhaust look and colour are linked to several things. Do we use the old MSTS ace file in a much better way than at present, or look for another method?.

First of all, exhaust velocity, whilst standing still this is produced by the draft through the fire. Faster and stronger with the blower running. Slower but still with velocity with no blower, rather like the old domestic coal fire. Next, when moving velocity and thus height are controlled by the pressure leaving the cylinders and exiting the stack, minus any back pressure generated in the system. In some locomotives because of the exhaust design this results in a high towering smoke effect and in others a much lower softer exhaust is produced when working.

Smoke/steam colour difference is a result of firing the locomotive, add fuel and you get smoke mixed with the steam as volatiles are burnt off. Observe any locomotive where hand firing is done and you will see this. OIl burners and coal stoker fed alternatives are different in how the stack emission looks. At present all OR steam locomotives are using an approximation of a non-stop mechanical stoker,

Steam emissions from other sources on a locomotive require something different than the current application of the same ace file as the exhaust to be anywhere close to convincing in look.

[ATSF3751]

Yes this is exactly what has been bugging me and I may have a crack at it to fix some myself once I figure out the coding for Open Rails. I feel we need to have 2 separate types of smoke as I stated previously and maybe start from scratch because what we have right now is nothing to what it could look like.

Brandon

[darwins]

Very happy if some one can improve the steam smoke effects.

In UK vacuum brake ejectors exhausted up the chimney so would have the same effect as the blower - on some older British locos the blower and the small ejector were one and the same.

Although much of the input for smoke is there - OR does not currently model the effect of secondary air (through firebox doors) so this would need to be added in later, when manual firing is further developed.

[ATSF3751]

Hey everyone,

I just got done talking to a friend of mine who used to be a programmer and is also a major railfan. We were talking about how to incorporate the puffing aspect of the smoke into the simulator. I believe this can already be done with a little bit of tweaking of the source files. The process of what we came up with is to interrogate the blasting of the smoke to the placement of where the rods are every quarter turn.

The smoke output would still be controlled by the throttle as it is at the moment and then further advancements would be made at a later date. I believe we also would need 2 different smoke outputs in order for this to work. One for the steam and another for the smoke.

The smoke color would still be controlled by the way it is being fired and advancement in the stoker/non stoker needs to be done as well along with blower and other valuables that would be put into play.

Let me know what you guys think of this idea and if it would be possible to implement this into the coding.

Brandon

[steamer_ctn]

scottb613, on 17 January 2021 - 07:09 AM, said:

I think Peter is the only ORTS developer changing the steam code - he was willing to do all the coding - what he asked of other participants was data research and methodic testing of changes. I'm not sure if he's still active as I haven't noticed any recent posts from him.

Yes, I am still active, and I am currently working on a straight vacuum brake system (Eames brake).

scottb613, on 17 January 2021 - 06:33 AM, said:

From my testing - I don’t think the injectors have any effect on steam production while they had a substantial effect in MSTS. You had to be very careful in MSTS when you added water and from which injector - as it could kill you on a climb. ORTS doesn’t care - run one or both continually and you will make steam just fine.

Injector input does have an impact in OR. It will reduce the temperature of the water in the boiler, and hence reduce the steam production rate.

As has been pointed out different injector systems inject different temperature water into the boiler. Typically water temperature and water injection rates vary with injector size, and steam pressure. Getting accurate information for each of the different feed system types has been a challenge to date. I managed to get some data from a manufacturers leaflet, so the current OR version is modeled on this injector. Part of the challenge is that each facet of the locomotive requires a certain degree of specialization.

As Scott has pointed out, I try to ensure that all my physic code additions are based upon a solid physics base (good data and test results) to ensure that the accuracy of the OR steam physics is as close as possible to reality.

ATSF3751, on 17 January 2021 - 06:41 AM, said:

I have also talked to Peter as well and I am willing to help him out as much as I am able too. However I do not know coding so I wont be able to help out in that respect but obtaining hard data I could look for. The major thing that I have been asking for is the smoke. We need 2 different smoke/steam effects. One for the appliances and the other for the stack and cylinders. That is one major thing that really bugs me about Open Rails and that fact that the smoke does not blast out of the stack when you have the throttle wide open. For the smoke to look right it needs to be effected by wind, throttle, how it is being fired, and the blower.

In regards to the smoke and steam effects, I have had added a number of steam/smoke/water effects, but they are all reliant on the current particle emitter. The particle emitters are more of a "visual" effect in OR, and I do not have expertise in recoding or understanding of this section of OR. The movement of the smoke as you describe is a separate set of physics properties and coding would be independent of the locomotive. I am happy to provide locomotive physics inputs for these visual effects, but it would have to be set up to take them.

It would be necessary to find a developer with an interest and expertise in visual presentation of objects.