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#221 User is offline   YoRyan 

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Posted 13 August 2020 - 02:52 PM

I am still of the opinion that a key-value store for every railcar and every formation of railcars is sufficiently malleable to simulate any future operating modes.

#222 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 13 August 2020 - 04:58 PM

 YoRyan, on 13 August 2020 - 02:52 PM, said:

I am still of the opinion that a key-value store for every railcar and every formation of railcars is sufficiently malleable to simulate any future operating modes.


As an ordered list of units, yes, you are correct. Things start to get messy when other data are attached to the container. The higher up any hierarchy the more complex it gets, clearly spilling into implications for signalling and what a player can and cannot do in today's code. We might be able to quickly move forward with a 3 or 4 level hierarchy of lists and try and figure out the extra data later on. The gap we have right now is, in part, jargon, in part real differences between countries, and in part my preference to move certain functions of train operations out of a fully scripted scenario into a more free form scenario. The later would need certain events to be executed by the player and before and after status of those events carried somewhere.

#223 User is offline   cjakeman 

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Posted 14 August 2020 - 07:48 AM

 cjakeman, on 11 August 2020 - 08:02 AM, said:

No, but I think it might be better to move the entire thread into the public forum. There are 7 pages of posts from:

  • James Ross
  • wacampbell
  • captain_bazza
  • longiron
  • roeter
  • Genma Saotome
  • smmille1
  • cjakeman

I will ask them if they mind and then maybe we can get it moved.

I've had approval and no objections, which is great.

Can't find out how to move the thread though.

I'll have to paraphrase the thread and post a single lengthy post. Hope I can do that without distorting people's views too much.

#224 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 14 August 2020 - 09:52 AM

 cjakeman, on 14 August 2020 - 07:48 AM, said:

I've had approval and no objections, which is great.

Can't find out how to move the thread though.


Chris, you should be a moderator for these forums... In the list of threads select the check box along the right edge of the screen. Down at the bottom is a pull down list (starting with "Closed....". Find "move thread in that list and select it. Now click the "Selected" button to the right. This will bring up a page where you will see a pull down list that holds the list of forums to which the thread can be moved. It's a long list. Find "Developing Features", select it, and then click on whatever button is there that indicates you are done.

#225 User is offline   cjakeman 

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Posted 15 August 2020 - 10:00 AM

 Genma Saotome, on 14 August 2020 - 09:52 AM, said:

Chris, you should be a moderator for these forums...
Thanks, Dave, for your detailed instructions.

The private thread has now been moved here and is called "Overall File System and Data Structure" starting 09 December 2011, so it's the oldest in the Developing Features forum.

#226 User is offline   YoRyan 

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 11:18 AM

I have updated the master post with a draft proposal for JSON structures, based on the new data model. At this time, I am only tackling explore the route mode, and I am assuming no additional features in the simulator.

#227 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 12:28 PM

Ryan, I've taken a look at the basenote and concluded I need to spend a lot more time studying what's there (my ability to see well enough to read stuff varies day by day)..

A couple of days ago I was fiddling with some ideas on how to handle a multi-level list as held by a instanced train and what came to mind was perhaps the number of levels is not terribly important so long as there is an attributive attached to each group that characterizes the group in a specific way, sort of a qualifier to the group name. I'm thinking along the lines of values like through, local, etc. Not sure what the list of values might be, just that their display under a f7 sequence, in combination with the group name, would help explain to the player what to expect when examining the units in his train.


Something else came to mind that might be useful for inserting new values specific to an activity. OR handles multiple occurrences of any parameter by keeping the most recently read and tossing whatever had been read before. A good use of this come with the include file where the .inc file can bring in a new value for Mass(), MaxBrakeForce(), etc., for specific ladings, or even just variation to a .wag. I don't know how OR processes activity files so I don't know how much change this might entail, but if the process fins .inc files in an activity directory before reading the lists of individual units it could update the original .wag values to something specific to the activity. Is that feasible? I recall talking to Chris about this once and IIRC he figured it could be done but it wasn't set up for it now.

#228 User is offline   YoRyan 

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 05:41 PM

 Genma Saotome, on 18 August 2020 - 12:28 PM, said:

A couple of days ago I was fiddling with some ideas on how to handle a multi-level list as held by a instanced train and what came to mind was perhaps the number of levels is not terribly important so long as there is an attributive attached to each group that characterizes the group in a specific way, sort of a qualifier to the group name.

Indeed - I intend to hide the multiple levels of segments from the rest of the simulator. We'll rely solely on the per-car attributes to convey any special spawning instructions.

 Genma Saotome, on 18 August 2020 - 12:28 PM, said:

I don't know how OR processes activity files so I don't know how much change this might entail, but if the process fins .inc files in an activity directory before reading the lists of individual units it could update the original .wag values to something specific to the activity. Is that feasible?

This is certainly feasible, but I would prefer we come up with a well-defined set of reasonable overrides, rather than haphazardly duplicating all wagon data in the activity format.

#229 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 07:08 PM

 YoRyan, on 18 August 2020 - 05:41 PM, said:

This is certainly feasible, but I would prefer we come up with a well-defined set of reasonable overrides, rather than haphazardly duplicating all wagon data in the activity format.


Duplicating all wagon data? That's not how include files work. They can be as thin as a single parameter.

What I was getting at is the sequence of reading files. IF the list of any include files within the activity directories are found AND the file reads of the individual units are read after that it would be theoretically possible to read the unit file and then read the corresponding include file thereby bringing found therein.

Alternatively a pointer to a relevant include file could be inserted into the ordered list of units, unit by unit.

Something to think about.

#230 User is offline   gpz 

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Posted 19 August 2020 - 03:29 AM

 YoRyan, on 18 August 2020 - 11:18 AM, said:

I have updated the master post with a draft proposal for JSON structures, based on the new data model. At this time, I am only tackling explore the route mode, and I am assuming no additional features in the simulator.

Although I still think it would be clearer to reference the two main types of data (the "mergeList"-type and the "selectOne"-type) with two distinct keywords, but let's go with this structure for now. Some thoughts though:

  • The random selection from a collection (segment?) I was thinking of in my previous posts and use cases is actually a mix of your "random" and "pool" types. I am thinking of a type, where the selection is (a.) random, unlike the pool type, where it is sequential, but (b.) it is still ensured that no item is selected twice, unlike the random type, where it is based on probability weighting. In this type the probability weight might be simply 1 for all including elements, because eventually the higher weight just means the item will be selected more ahead in the row, but ultimately the selection row will contain all elements, and only just once.
  • Neither the sub-level selection constraint was mentioned, as it would be needed for the previously described EMU use-case. It could be imagined as a kind of opposite of the "pool" type, an anti-pool. :) Pool type ensures that no element is selected twice, however this new anti-pool type would randomly select one from the collection, but once selected, it would always select the same one for all subsequent selection requests (for the consist).
  • It might be possible to be considered to preserve the possibility of being able to write everything into a single file. The proposed json schema (would be nice to define a real json schema) would allow this with a single small modification in the item definition, like this:
    {
        "Item": "/MSTS/TRAINS/TRAINSET/dash9/dash9.eng",
        "InlineItem": {
            "Type": "random",
            "Items": [
                ...
            ]
        },
        "Count": 2,
        "Flip": true,
        "Session": {
            "Attribute1": "value1",
            "Attribute2": "value2",
            ...
        }
    }

    Unlike in the above example, the "Item" and "InlineItem" (or something like that, it's a silly name) are excluding each other, of course. (BTW your "Item" keyword might actually be what Dave is mentioning as an "Include" keyword.) This inline substituting wouldn't work for really complex scenarios by the way, because those need to deanonimize certain structures for being able to reference them multiple times.


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