[Swallowtail]

Good morning everyone, and thank you to admin team for access :)

I am an old hand at MSTS but read about Open Rails recently and was very keen to try it out.

It picked up my MSTS install fine and I can successfully explore my routes. One I have been driving is Highland Mainline, downloaded from UKTrainSim. I am having difficulties with an activity though, and from some digging I suspect that the issue is that the MSTS freeware engine file is not setup correctly for the vacuum brakes in the train I am trying to drive.

The engine is 40024, attached, and in the activity you couple up to a loose consist of some newspaper coaches and some vacuum fitted wagons. But I can't release the train. After some troubleshooting I worked out that running only with the air-brake-fitted newspaper coaches works fine, so I have removed those from the consist to try and find out what I need to do to run the vacuum-brake-fitted freight wagons. I have a rudimentary understanding of rail brakes only, given that MSTS is a far simpler model - but I'd like to understand better and get this working in OR... I have a LOT of downloaded MSTS content I'd like to run with.

I have learned about the Shift F5 and F9 menus in OR, and have backed onto the consist, and connected brake hoses. I think I have the angle cocks set correctly (closed front of locomotive and end of last wagon, open within the consist). As soon as I connect, the locomotive's Triple Valve setting in the ShiftF5 HUD shows as Emergency. I cannot release the train at this point. Eventually after about 10 minutes the BrkCyl and BrkPipe values for the consist reach -99 inHg and the locomotive's TripleVale setting drops to Release, however the train still cannot be moved (other than dragging the wagons skidding along the track). I have released train brakes with ; and removed handbrakes with Shift ; the locomotive brake using [. I have tried initialising the brakes but am uncertain what the resultant changes 'mean'. I can also 'Bail Off' which drops the locomotive's BrkCyl to 0, but makes no changes to the consist - but again not sure what that is supposed to result in.

The shift F5 menu in the screenshot attached shows Release EQ 90 psi BC 58 psi BP 58 psi EOT BP -88. I assume BC is Brake cylinder and BP is Brake pipe, and EOT BP is end of train brake pipe?

What values should I be seeing in the train for it to move? I would assume that I'd need BrkCyl on the locomotive to be 0 for it to release there, but why when there is vacuum in the consist are the brakes not releasing?

Any advice would be appreciated. I have done a fair bit of reading, and have come across some material here on the forum that seem to indicate that the freeware MSTS eng file may be the issue, not being setup correctly for OR's vac brakes - but I'd like to understand what I need to learn and change so I can apply myself to other locomotives.

EDIT: incidentally, I assume that the Shift F5 screen not loading its values under the correct column headings is an unrelated issue?

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 

Attached File(s)

•  40024.eng (29.96K)
  Number of downloads: 361

This post has been edited by Swallowtail: 04 May 2020 - 03:00 PM

[Aldarion]

Hy Swallow.

Welcome. I've done my migration from MSTS to OR a couple of years ago and I, boy, am I glad i did it.

I see that the locomotive does not have Vacuum brakes. It is single piped. What you should see in the cilynder brakes is nor 0 when in Vaccum. And certainly not negative figures, which means there is pressure there, from a air brake system.

Hope you're confortable editing eng files.
On 40024.eng, instead of

	BrakeEquipmentType( "Triple_valve, Auxilary_reservoir, Emergency_brake_reservoir" )

	BrakeSystemType( "Air_single_pipe" )
	MaxBrakeForce ( 62kN )
	
	EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure( 110 )
	TripleValveRatio( 2.5 )
	MaxReleaseRate( 30 )
	MaxApplicationRate( 25 )
	MaxAuxilaryChargingRate( 20 )
	EmergencyResCapacity( 10 )
	EmergencyResChargingRate( 25 )
	BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce( 70 )

You should have

	BrakeEquipmentType 				( "Vacuum_brake, Handbrake" )
	BrakeSystemType 				( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
	MaxBrakeForce					( 114.737kN ) Comment (* Braked at 70% tare mass, coefficient of friction 0.20 *)
	MaxHandbrakeForce				( 66kN )

	MaxReleaseRate 					( 50 )
	MaxApplicationRate 				( 10 )
	BrakePipePolume 				( 1.35ft^3 ) Comment (* based on length of carriage plus 30 feet for bends, branches, standards and hoses *)
	ORTSDirectAdmissionValve 			( 0 )
	ORTSAuxilaryResCapacity 			( 20.25ft^3 )
	ORTSNumberBrakeCylinders 			( 2 )
	ORTSBrakeCylinderSize 				( 10in )
	BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce 	( 21inHg ) Comment (* not yet functional *)

	ORTSBrakeShoeFriction ( 0.0 0.50 8.0 0.288 16.1 0.241 24.1 0.211 32.2 0.187 40.2 0.173 48.3 0.161 56.3 0.150 64.4 0.142 72.2 0.139 80.5 0.134 88.5 0.129 96.6 0.125 104.6 0.123 112.7 0.121) Comment (* Cast Iron Brakeshoes *)   

AND, where you have

	AirBrakesAirCompressorPowerRating( 1.2 )
	AirBrakesMainMinResAirPressure( 0 )
	AirBrakesMainMaxAirPressure( 90 )
	AirBrakesMainResVolume( 8 )
	AirBrakesAirCompressorWattage( 19000 )
	AirBrakesCompressorRestartPressure( 87 )
	AirBrakesAirUsedPerPoundsOfBrakePipePressure( 0.22 )
	AirBrakesIsCompressorElectricOrMechanical( 1 )

	EngineBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 6 )
	TrainBrakesControllerMinPressureReduction( 6 )
	EngineBrakesControllerHasProportionalBrake( 1 )
	EngineBrakesProportionalBrakeLag( 0.9 )
	EngineBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 20 )
	TrainBrakesControllerMaxApplicationRate( 20 )
	EngineBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 15 )
	TrainBrakesControllerMaxReleaseRate( 4 )
	EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 50 )
	TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyApplicationRate( 50 )
	EngineBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
	TrainBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure( 0 )
	EngineBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 90 )
	TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure( 90 )
	EngineBrakesControllerEmergencyBrakeTimePenalty( 60 )
	TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyBrakeTimePenalty( 60 )
	EngineBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 26 )
	TrainBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop( 26 )


	DynamicBrakesMinUsableSpeed( 5 )
	DynamicBrakesMaximumEffectiveSpeed( 25 )
	DynamicBrakesMaximumForce( 20000 )
	DynamicBrakesResistorCurrentLimit ( 5000 )
	DynamicBrakesCutInSpeed( 8 )
	DynamicBrakesMaxAirBrakePressure ( 15 )
	DynamicBrakesFadingSpeed( 25 )
	DynamicBrakesDelayTimeBeforeEngaging ( 10 )
	DynamicBrakesMaximumSpeedForFadeOut ( 65 )
	DynamicBrakesEffectAtMaximumFadeOut( 0 )
	DynamicBrakesHigherSpeedCurveExponent( 1 )
	DynamicBrakesLowerSpeedCurveExponent( 1 )
	DynamicBrakesNumberOfControllerNotches( 10 )


	BrakesEngineBrakeType( "Vacuum_single_pipe"  )
	BrakesTrainBrakeType( "Vacuum_single_pipe" )
        BrakesEngineControllers( "Independent, Train, Dynamic" )

replace with

	BrakesTrainBrakeType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe_eq" )
	BrakesEngineBrakeType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe"  )
	BrakesEngineControllers ( "Hand, Train, Engine" )

	VacuumBrakesMinBoilerPressureMaxVacuum			( 110 )
	ORTSBrakePipeChargingRate 				( 40InHg/s )
	TrainPipeLeakRate 					( 0.05 )
	ORTSBrakePipeTimeFactor 				( 0.36 )
	ORTSBrakeServiceTimeFactor 				( 20.09 )
	ORTSBrakeEmergencyTimeFactor 				( 0.1 )
	ORTSBrakePipeDischargeTimeMult 				( 1.5 )

	VacuumBrakesHasVacuumPump				( 0 )
	ORTSVacuumBrakesMainResVolume 				( 200 )
	ORTSVacuumBrakesMainResMaxVacuum 			( 23 )
	ORTSVacuumBrakesMainResChargingRate 			( 0.2 )

	TrainBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure 			( 21 )
	TrainBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure			( 0 )
	TrainBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop 		( 25 )

	EngineBrakesControllerMaxSystemPressure			( 21 )
	EngineBrakesControllerMinSystemPressure			( 0 )
	EngineBrakesControllerFullServicePressureDrop 		( 25 )
 	EngineBrakesControllerHasProportionalBrake		( 1 )
 	EngineBrakesProportionalBrakeLag			( 0.9 )

AND Finally, replace

            Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.025 0.75 
                NumNotches ( 5
                    Notch( 0    0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
                    Notch( 0.3  1 TrainBrakesControllerGraduatedSelfLapLimitedHoldingStart )
                    Notch( 0.85 0 TrainBrakesControllerSuppressionStart )
                    Notch( 0.9  0 TrainBrakesControllerContinuousServiceStart )
                    Notch( 0.95 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart )
                )
            )

with

	Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.05 0.4 
		NumNotches ( 5
			Notch( 0 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
			Notch( 0.2 0 TrainBrakesControllerRunningStart )
			Notch( 0.4 0 TrainBrakesControllerHoldLappedStart ) 
			Notch( 0.6 0 TrainBrakesControllerApplyStart ) 
			Notch( 0.9 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart ) 
		)
	)

Some figures might have to change.

Also one hint to have in mind -> 'Shift'+'-' This is a key combination to reinitialize brakes , so try it to see if that makes you roll in no , if there is any desperation
Of course this is not a definite solution. Eng and wag files should be adapted and updated.
Being a content producer myself, I have been, in the last two years, to update my content to take advantage of the aditional realism that Or brings. And I have a lot of rolling stock to update believe me.


Hope this helps

[Swallowtail]

Aldarion, on 04 May 2020 - 03:43 PM, said:

Hy Swallow.

Welcome. I've done my migration from MSTS to OR a couple of years ago and I, boy, am I glad i did it.

I see that the locomotive does not have Vacuum brakes. It is single piped. What you should see in the cilynder brakes is nor 0 when in Vaccum. And certainly not negative figures, which means there is pressure there, from a air brake system.

Hope you're confortable editing eng files.
On 40024.eng, instead of

{snip}
Some figures might have to change.

Also one hint to have in mind -> 'Shift'+'-' This is a key combination to reinitialize brakes , so try it to see if that makes you roll in no , if there is any desperation
Of course this is not a definite solution. Eng and wag files should be adapted and updated.
Being a content producer myself, I have been, in the last two years, to update my content to take advantage of the aditional realism that Or brings. And I have a lot of rolling stock to update believe me.


Hope this helps

I'll give that a go - thank you!

With this config, will the locomotive still be able to control air-braked stock, or now just vac-braked? Originally the consist in this activity is a combination of air- and vac-braked stock. How would that work in the prototype?

[Swallowtail]

From further reading... in the 1970s at least some diesel stock in the UK appears to have been fitted for air brakes and vacuum brakes as BR moved to air.

My questions (so many I know!): :)
1. Can Open Rail have a locomotive so that the same .eng file runs either air or vac, and how would you choose what to connect?
2. For a mixed consist my reading seems to indicate that the majority fitted type would run off the loco and the remainder run unfitted (or perhaps through-piped) - is that correct?
3. Assuming a consist of majority air-braked wagons running off the loco, and vac-braked (but not vac-connected) wagons on the rear, is there an Open Rails way to release the vac brakes on those wagons at the rear?
4. Would that be achieved through pipe connection, angle cock and bleed valves?
5. Would that air-braked train with some vac-fitted but not connected wagons on the rear need a brake van?
6. Could you have a set of air-braked wagons at the head through piped for vacuum to the rear - or was this not how it was done?
7. Can OR do through-piping for unfitted stock?

Thanks.

[darwins]

Hi Swallowtail

1. The short answer is no. OR can not have both air braking and vacuum braking on the same loco. [Although if you choose the simple controls option on the options tab then you can use any loco with any mixture of stock and the brakes will work.]
For full controls you need to have separate eng files for each braking mode. So on the real loco there would be a selector switch - VACUUM UNBRAKED / VACUUM BRAKED / - / AIR PASSENGER / AIR GOODS - in open rails you need to have a separate eng file for each configuration.

2. On passenger trains, all or almost all vehicles must have operational brakes - so only one or two piped vehicles permitted - the rest including the rear vehicle must have working brakes of the same type connected to the engine. On goods trains there were still some wagons with no train brakes at all during the 1970s.


3. No. There is a functional bleed of valve for air brakes, but there is no functional release valve for vacuum brakes in OR. This also limits possibilities for loose shunting and changing locos from those using 25in Hg to those using 21inHg on the same consist. It would be good to see the vacuum release valve added to OR.

4. Not sure what the question means, but in OR everything is done using brake pipe and angle cock - even though vacuum pipes in real life do not have angle cocks. As stated above there are functional bleed valves for air brakes only, there are no functional vacuum release valves for vacuum brakes.

5. Yes. The vac wagons on the rear would be unfitted as they would have no working automatic train brake. A brake van would be required.

6. No. Any one train only ever used a single automatic train braking system, be it EP, air or vacuum. Back to answer number 1 - the driver has to select the braking mode to be used for the train when it is coupled up - only one type of train brake is in use at one time.

7. Yes. In fact it is almost mandatory in OR! It is recommend that all wagons are either fitted with a working automatic brake system or a through pipe - even though many real life wagons in UK had neither.

[darwins]

I am working on some replacement eng files for diesel electrics at the moment.
Attached is a first attempt at Class 40 - it shows the different brake types used on these:
Original vacuum brakes only
D201_VB - vacuum braked modeD201_VU - vacuum unbraked mode
Later after fitting of dual air/vacuum brakes
40181_VB - vacuum braked mode40181_VU - vacuum unbraked mode40181_AP - air passenger mode40181_AG - air goods mode

Attached File(s)

•  Class_40.zip (36.08K)
  Number of downloads: 389

[Swallowtail]

darwins, on 04 May 2020 - 10:19 PM, said:

Hi Swallowtail

1. The short answer is no. OR can not have both air braking and vacuum braking on the same loco. [Although if you choose the simple controls option on the options tab then you can use any loco with any mixture of stock and the brakes will work.]
For full controls you need to have separate eng files for each braking mode. So on the real loco there would be a selector switch - VACUUM UNBRAKED / VACUUM BRAKED / - / AIR PASSENGER / AIR GOODS - in open rails you need to have a separate eng file for each configuration.

2. On passenger trains, all or almost all vehicles must have operational brakes - so only one or two piped vehicles permitted - the rest including the rear vehicle must have working brakes of the same type connected to the engine. On goods trains there were still some wagons with no train brakes at all during the 1970s.


3. No. There is a functional bleed of valve for air brakes, but there is no functional release valve for vacuum brakes in OR. This also limits possibilities for loose shunting and changing locos from those using 25in Hg to those using 21inHg on the same consist. It would be good to see the vacuum release valve added to OR.

4. Not sure what the question means, but in OR everything is done using brake pipe and angle cock - even though vacuum pipes in real life do not have angle cocks. As stated above there are functional bleed valves for air brakes only, there are no functional vacuum release valves for vacuum brakes.

5. Yes. The vac wagons on the rear would be unfitted as they would have no working automatic train brake. A brake van would be required.

6. No. Any one train only ever used a single automatic train braking system, be it EP, air or vacuum. Back to answer number 1 - the driver has to select the braking mode to be used for the train when it is coupled up - only one type of train brake is in use at one time.

7. Yes. In fact it is almost mandatory in OR! It is recommend that all wagons are either fitted with a working automatic brake system or a through pipe - even though many real life wagons in UK had neither.

Super useful, thank you very much.

OK - so separate eng files is the way to go. I notice the files have different speed of release and application in the air passenger and goods ones - is that just because trains with coaches were faster to apply / release?

In the absence of a functional release valve for vac-fitted stock for it to run as unfitted in an air-braked train (yes it would be a good feature!), to mimic a vac-fitted van in an air-braked train I'd need to remove its brakes and just have it through piped? How do you define a .wag file as having through pipe only (i.e. completely unfitted)?

Again - thank you.

[Swallowtail]

On route Highland Mainline, activity Southbound Goods, I have loaded 40181 from UKTrainSim, dropped in darwin's .eng files, assigned to common.sound BRClass40. There is an issue with the cab view (looking right while in the cab crashes Open Rail), but loco works OK. Quick to respond with no load, although I find the 100-step throttle a bit painful. The original consist in the activity had 3 x Mk1 BGs, air fitted, and 13 x 12T vac fitted vans - total weight about 300t. I've replaced with a set of NPVs and BGs (I had to edit the NPVs to air-brake them instead of vac), total about 250t. Using 40181 AP from darwins, and it seems to all work fine. Braking is certainly working!

I'll work through all of the settings and set up some additional consists and play with vac, air etc. I would like to find out how to do through piping for a partially fitted train and play with a goods train with a brake van...

[Aldarion]

Hi Swallow. Nice to see that darwins gave you a good help.
Anyways, you should take a good look in this page:
Coals to Newcastle

[Swallowtail]

Aldarion, on 05 May 2020 - 04:33 AM, said:

Hi Swallow. Nice to see that darwins gave you a good help.
Anyways, you should take a good look in this page:
Coals to Newcastle

That's great - looks like a good resource! Thank you, you have BOTH been very helpful.

Interestingly I reconstructed the consist with some CCTs, and OR sees the following as through-piped only, no actual brakes (including no handbrake):

BrakeEquipmentType( "Handbrake, Graduate_release_Triple_valve, Auxilary_reservoir )
	BrakeSystemType( "Air_single_pipe" )
	MaxBrakeForce( 11.5kN )

	MaxHandbrakeForce( 19kN )
	NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 )

	TripleValveRatio( 2.5 )
	MaxReleaseRate( 3 )
        MaxApplicationRate( 4 )
	MaxAuxilaryChargingRate( 5 )
	EmergencyResCapacity( 7 )
	EmergencyResChargingRate( 5 )
	EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure( 55 )
	BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce( 55 )

Something in there OR doesn't like...