[SD45T-2]

I've noticed something interesting about older cab views with mouse controls. The reason most moved from cabs with mouse controls to cabs without was the fact that the perspective wasn't particularly realistic, showing a view of someone standing behind the seat instead of a engineer's view.

Well, I've noticed something about those old cabviews. When in widescreen mode, if the view is fully scrolled up, they give an excellent engineer's view of the track, without it seeming like you face is in the glass.

Take a look: This is from Dwight Mitchell's SD70ACe cab in widescreen mode, scrolled all the way up.



Nice view, isn't it? And it's at an engineer's eye level!

Thoughts? I'll probably post a few more screenshots of similar cabs.

[ErickC]

It still doesn't come close to an engineer's perspective. In a real cab, discounting peripheral vision, you're either looking at the stand or out the window, not both, because the stand is closer than you'd think and to the side. That cabview makes it look like the angle on the stand is much shallower than it actually is, the real one is pretty close to 90 degrees from the front wall. The perspective is also way too far away still. The only workable solution, as I see it, is 3D cabs.

[scottb613]

Hi Folks,

Yeah - I’v been planning to start my first 3D cab - but the fact I can’t see smoke effects - and - more recently read - that light passes through the roof are two major issues that give me pause...

Regards,
Scott

[SD45T-2]

ErickC, on 10 April 2019 - 11:09 PM, said:

It still doesn't come close to an engineer's perspective. In a real cab, discounting peripheral vision, you're either looking at the stand or out the window, not both, because the stand is closer than you'd think and to the side. That cabview makes it look like the angle on the stand is much shallower than it actually is, the real one is pretty close to 90 degrees from the front wall. The perspective is also way too far away still. The only workable solution, as I see it, is 3D cabs.

You're right, now that I think about it. All 2D MSTS/OR cabs seem to be guilty of what you just said to some degree.



This is the Jointed Rail GP50 Cabview. If I look down, the seat is under me. Very little of the control stand is visible, just some of the air gauges. If I zoomed in a bit more to simulate where an engineer's actual eyes would be...



There's even less visible.

And finally, a bit off to the side to see all the gauges, still zoomed in a little.



And now, I'd like to apologize for being an idiot about cabviews.

Edit - I may have screwed up a bit with saying the "Zoomed in" views are more accurate to a engineer's eyes.

[ErickC]

I don't think that "being an idiot" is the right phrase. I think you're doing what we all did for many years, looking for a compromise between perspective and functionality. The wider screen certainly allows one to expand the field-of-view to include more of the control stand, but from the engineer's perspective the portions of the stand you would see would be at an angle that would render a 2D setup really impractical to animate. And you'd still only really be seeing the top of the stand unless you take the photo from very far back. 2D cabs are just too limited to be of any use in capturing the feel of being in the engineer's seat, I think.

When I was doing 2D cabs, I tended to think more on the side of perspective than anything else, because the feedback I got from real-life engineers was that they don't actually spend a whole lot of time looking at the levers, and operate mostly on sound and feel. Real-life locomotive cabs are incredibly cramped spaces, and the control stands take up an almost absurd amount of real estate (When I was measuring and photographing MNTX 559s cab, Anthony Wood reminded me that some railroads had dual-control setups and we got to thinking how tight of a fit that must have been).

The beauty of OR is that a combination of 3D cabs and better audio parameters allow a developer to bring a much more accurate experience to the end-user. These days, when I'm using my own content, I almost completely forget about the position of levers and whatnot and just use aural cues, except when I need to look at the gauges, obviously. Now if only we could get some feel in the seats of our pants. In real life, as I understand it, the people who get the most out of their equipment are the ones who can feel what it's trying to tell them. Al Krug had some great stories about that. Machines are always talking, you've just got to learn to listen.

[ebnertra000]

I tend to use the projected speed in the track monitor as a substitute of sorts for not being able to feel what's going on. I also tend to go off the sounds. It's a pretty solid system, in my opinion

[R H Steele]

To me, Run8 is the current gold standard in 3D cabviews. I'm sure OR will get to that point someday, If you've never seen one, take some time to search out some screenshots, not quite as impressive as actually using one, they are well crafted.

ErickC, on 11 April 2019 - 06:06 AM, said:

...The beauty of OR is that a combination of 3D cabs and better audio parameters allow a developer to bring a much more accurate experience to the end-user. These days, when I'm using my own content, I almost completely forget about the position of levers and whatnot and just use aural cues, except when I need to look at the gauges, obviously. Now if only we could get some feel in the seats of our pants. In real life, as I understand it, the people who get the most out of their equipment are the ones who can feel what it's trying to tell them. Al Krug had some great stories about that. Machines are always talking, you've just got to learn to listen.

Agree, I like playing virtual pool, but I miss the weight of the cue, the feel of the cue impact against the ball, the physicality of moving around the table, stretch to make shots. The "seat of the pants" feeling is an apt phrase.

scottb613, on 11 April 2019 - 04:19 AM, said:

Hi Folks, Yeah - I’v been planning to start my first 3D cab - but the fact I can’t see smoke effects - and - more recently read - that light passes through the roof are two major issues that give me pause...
Regards,
Scott

Scott, moments ago ( 8:59) Carlo posted about this - perhaps it also applies to light
http://www.elvastowe...460#entry246991

[SD45T-2]

Especially with improved sound-sets, I only tend to use audio cues and the gauges.

What I do like about cabs with full controls is the fact that I can move the brake handles much faster. The keyboard controls for brakes work very slowly, which gets on my nerves a little, especially with regards to the independent brake. Maybe I'm seeing things wrong, but engineers seem to move the brake handles rather quickly.

I can't afford a Raildriver at the moment, so this will do for now, despite being slightly awkward.

R.H. Steele - I kindly beg to differ about Run8s cabs being the best. If you look up, you'll see the cab for Jointed Rail's GP50. Their cabs are the best looking cabs for any sim in my mind, and they've got some really cool features. For a start, the EOTD box in the cab functions. It can indicate the air pressure at the rear of the train, and the step counter works, among other things in the cab. (Working doors, windows, and cab lights.)

Okay, I'll stop with the fanboying now... But seriously, I'd like to see a JR-esq cab in Open Rails.

[cr-stagg]

scottb613, on 11 April 2019 - 04:19 AM, said:

Hi Folks,

Yeah - I’v been planning to start my first 3D cab - but the fact I can’t see smoke effects - and - more recently read - that light passes through the roof are two major issues that give me pause...

Regards,
Scott

I think that that can be fixed. Dekosoft has released a number of diesels with 3dcabs that do not have that problem. I beta tested them for Chip and remember reporting cracks in the seams, but the released versions did not have that problem. Chip's implementation of the 3dcab is to create an entire second shape of the complete engine that is complete both inside and outside so that when the viewing point is moved to outside the cab the full exterior is seen; not just the portion of the exterior visible by looking out the windows.