[Woodfyr]

Scott,

First, let me say that I admire you dedication to the subject at hand or should I say taking shovel in hand. Going to be a bit more than setting the mixture or manifold pressure. :rolleyes:

It looks like you have a tiger by the tail. Locomotive boilers are in a world of their own. Unless you have been there, done that, the learning curve can be a real challenge.

First, there is the theory of combustion. Won't go there. Next is boiler efficiency. Here is a good place to start : https://www.advanced...ler-efficiency/

Locomotive boiler operation is an acquired art that can only be learned by experience. Then there is the fact that all of this is happening on board a moving, rocking and rolling mass of moving machinery. A good place to start is: https://prrt1steamlo...ub/download.php


Open Rails does not make it any easier. The control parameters (keyboard) do little to explain the proper operation of the relationship between fuel (Firing rate, Fire Shovel Full(??)), air (Damper, Blower), feedwater (Injector #1, Injector #2, Small Injector) etc.

Finally, each and every locomotive is going to fire differently, based upon design and actual manufacture.

To me, there is no "Standard" beyond the basic. Every fireman that I knew/know developed their own unique style, technique or whatever you wish you call it.

Good Luck, and yes, I would love to test.

[steamer_ctn]

Hi Scott,

As you are starting to appreciate, a steam locomotive is a complex machine, and requires a reasonable time and effort to get into all the complexities, hence the BASIC settings for those who don't wish to be bothered with these complexities.

Some general comments.

scottb613, on 24 March 2019 - 06:09 AM, said:

Hah - figured out one issue that had me confused for a bit - driving around with my boiler pressure pegged at max - then after about 20 to 30 minutes of running it would just die and I couldn’t recover - time and time again - couldn’t figure it out... Ultimately - I think the “max coal per hour” figure I set was way too low - 5000 - up it to 18000 and the issue seems to have gone away - no obvious indications in ORTS to tell me the fire went out though... I guess my fireman just went on a very silent strike (LOL - like my wife when she gets angry) ?

Is there a mechanical stoker fitted to the locomotive that you are modelling?

If you are relying on a human fireman, then a good US fireman could maintain approximately 4000 lbs/hr feed to the fire. As you have suggested this would limit the steaming ability of the locomotive if it is pushed too hard.

If a stoker was fitted, what was the maximum rate of feed? In the research that I have done todate, I have seen figures of up to 14,000 lbs/hr.

So be careful of falling into the MSTS trap of just upping parameters until the "problem" goes away.

scottb613, on 24 March 2019 - 06:09 AM, said:

I tried hand firing as well - but with the information available in ORTS - it seems virtually impossible - we have no indication of how the fire is doing - as we did with the ideal fire mass parameters in MSTS... We really do need a Steam HUD with more information (only the info that would be available to the crew)… I'd love a color coded gauge to tell us how he fire is doing (too much or little air - fire mass from ideal - too much or little fuel)... I don’t think the current smoke color is an accurate representation - is it ?

AI and manual firing are two different beasts, so they shouldn't be compared. AI firing will not relate closely to actually firing a real locomotive, it is meant to mainly allow the player to focus on driving (and not firing).

At one stage I did ask for volunteers to work with me to test and refine the Manual firing function, however todate I have had no takers.

scottb613, on 24 March 2019 - 06:09 AM, said:

Just so I’m clear - unless the value is outlined on your site - Peter - the values are ignored by ORTS ? Boiler effectivity - stuff like that ?

This is an ADVANCED parameter so an average curve is applied in a BASIC configuration. This may result in the locomotive either slightly over or under performing.

scottb613, on 24 March 2019 - 06:09 AM, said:

One other thing I've noticed - is most steam locomotives I drive seem way too slippery - now that I have correct Davis numbers - the drag on this locomotive seems right - this massive machine has friction - I'll need to rework the physics files on all those locomotives I routinely drive...

The physics used in OR is based upon information and formulae published in a locomotive textbook.

What is the correct amount of slip?

scottb613, on 24 March 2019 - 06:27 AM, said:

Sorry - not sure what you meant about standard - I have a PDF with basic performance numbers - but I don’t have any standard...

If we don't have a performance standard defined when we start testing the locomotive, how do we know whether it is performing realistically or not?

One of the three following approaches could be used to define a suitable performance standard (described in order of accuracy):

i) Test Reports - Using a test report set a test standard such as - "The locomotive must develop and maintain an IHP of xxx when running at FULL throttle, and a cutoff (reverser) of yy% and a speed of bbb mph". The test report will supply some of the parameters, and other test points as well. The OR code has been developed and confirmed against a number of test reports to ensure a reasonable degree of accuracy. The CTN Test Reports page has links to some that I have been able to access. Note that there a couple of reports for Consolidation locomotives on this page, I am not sure how they compare to the design standards of your locomotive, but they might give some guidance if you don't have a test report for the locomotive that you are building.
ii) Operational Data - Using actual published load tables for the locomotive - "The locomotive must be able to haul a load of xxx tons up a y % grade at a minimum speed of gg mph with a Full throttle setting and a cutoff of ff %". Whilst this may not be as accurate as i) above it is highly likely that this information might be easier to source then a test report.
iii) Generic Data - Similar to ii) above, but uses the calculator on CTN and draws comparisons to similarly designed locomotives. This is the least accurate and requires a number of "educated guesses".

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[scottb613]

Hi Folks,

Hah - we've got all the steam heavy hitters out... Thanks so much everyone !

==========
@Copperpen - yep - I did look at that parameter - but the examples on Peter's site all seemed to use real world data - which is in very short supply for this particular locomotive...
==========
@Lindsay - yeah - she's a beast - comparable pulling power with that of a USRA 2-10-2 Santa Fe...
==========
@Russ - Hah - shovel... Yep - no GUMP's required...
:p

Thanks - yeah - I've done this a couple other times - with help - and ORTS makes it a bit easier... It's not easy getting all the parameters to play nice together...

I'll keep you in mind once I get this sorted...
==========
@Peter - Yes - there is a mechanical stoker and I believe I have it set correctly (code on previous page)... I've been using both the Consolidation and Niagara on your site for reference (figuring I'm somewhere in between)... Initially - I had thought setting the stoker parameter would have negated the max coal per hour figure - apparently it doesn't... It would be nice to have a bit more dialog information - such as "max coal exceeded - your fire is out - dummy" - LOL... Instead of a max threshold perhaps it would be better to just throttle the coal throughout the hour - to match the limit... That way would seem a little more realistic - then just stopping completely when some number is hit ?

As for hand firing - yeah - maybe we are reaching the point of diminishing returns on this... How many people have ever hand fired a steam locomotive in MSTS/ORTS - while I am one - I'm sure we are but a handful... As for me - it's not something I routinely enjoy - I do it occasionally - but I prefer driving... Maybe - it's a waste of effort and we should focus on improving the AI Fireman and/or a Steam HUD (LOL - I have plenty of thoughts on that) ?

The ORTS controls don't make it very friendly to hand fire either - fortunately - I have a programmable keyboard with (18) hot keys that have (3) modes - so I can program and group all the hand firing functions logically... ORTS really needs to support custom user defined keyboard maps (along with true joystick/button support) - which would alleviate the fact that we are running out of possible key combinations to use in the sim...

As for "slip" - poor choice of words on my part - I was referring to friction... So many of the locomotives I drive have very little friction - once they get moving - they tend to stay moving with very little effort - when I set the Davis numbers on this one - it seems to be a more realistic level - just seat of my pants feeling stuff - no real world data to go on...

Yeah - real world standards are a bit beyond the scope of what I'm trying to achieve - plausible - is more of what I'm looking for - mainly - because the RW data just doesn't exist for my locomotive or the data is beyond the effort I'm willing to expend in an attempt to locate it... Everything we do in the sim is a compromise - so - I'm just trying to get "in the ballpark" of what a massive locomotive such as this - would behave like...

I have been hitting your site pretty heavy - and I've looked at the Consolidation model in the most detail - that said - these two Consolidations aren't even close - the one I've modeled is closer to a Santa Fe than a PRR H6...

RE: Data Collection

Would you consider changing the steam data collection interval to every minute (or user defined) vs every 5MPH ? Seeing what's happening when I hit grades and over time might prove more beneficial when trying to diagnose issues - it's only 60 log entries in an hour so it shouldn't tax anyone's system or space requirement...

While I see the values for steam, fuel, water consumed - I don't see a figure that equates to "steam produced" collected - is it available ?

Also if we could add some route info to the data collection - like mileage and/or grade - so we can equate the steam performance to an actual location would be helpful...

I don't see any data collected on the fire - is that not really modeled in ORTS - meaning fuel/air mixture not part of the equation ?

LOL - just my 2 cents - please take it for what it's worth...
==========

Regards,
Scott

[scottb613]

Hi Folks,

Just everything I have for data on the locomotive in question:

Quote

### General Information ###

• Lehigh & Hudson River
  
• Country: USA
  
• Whyte: 2-8-0
  
• Number in Class: 6
  
• Road Numbers: 90-95
  
• Gauge: Std
  
• Number Built: 6
  
• Builder: Baldwin
  
• Year: 1925
  
• Valve Gear: Walschaert

### Locomotive Length and Weight ###

• Driver Wheelbase (ft / m): 17.50 / 5.33
  
• Engine Wheelbase (ft / m): 27.50 / 8.38
  
• Ratio driving wheelbase to engine wheelbase: 0.64
  
• Overall Wheelbase (engine & tender) (ft / m): 75.40 / 22.98
  
• Axle Loading (Maximum Weight per Axle) (lbs / kg): Unknown
  
• Weight on Drivers (lbs / kg): 283,800 / 128,730
  
• Engine Weight (lbs / kg): 309,700 / 140,478
  
• Tender Loaded Weight (lbs / kg): 266,500
  
• Total Engine and Tender Weight (lbs / kg): 576,200
  
• Tender Water Capacity (gals / ML): 15,000 / 56.82
  
• Tender Fuel Capacity (gals/tons): 16 / 14.50
  
• Minimum weight of rail (lb/yd / kg/m): 118 / 59

### Geometry Relating to Tractive Effort ###

• Driver Diameter (in / mm): 61 / 1549
  
• Boiler Pressure (psi / kPa): 220 / 15.20
  
• High Pressure Cylinders (dia x stroke) (in / mm): 27" x 32" / 686x813
  
• Tractive Effort (lbs / kg): 71,514 / 32438.24
  
• Factor of Adhesion (Weight on Drivers/Tractive Effort): 3.97

### Heating Ability ###

• Firebox Area (sq ft / m2): 318 / 29.55
  
• Grate Area (sq ft / m2): 100 / 9.29
  
• Evaporative Heating Surface (sq ft / m2): 3607 / 335.22
  
• Superheating Surface (sq ft / m2): 924 / 85.87
  
• Combined Heating Surface (sq ft / m2): 4531 / 421.09
  
• Evaporative Heating Surface/Cylinder Volume: 170.10

### Computations Relating to Power Output ###

• Robert LeMassenas Power Computation: 22,000
  
• Same as above plus superheater percentage: 26,400
  
• Same as above but substitute firebox area for grate area: 83,952
  
• Power L1: 14,253
  
• Power MT: 442.88

### Anecdotal Comments ###

Drury (1993) comments that these were very large 2-8-0s with tractive effort nearly as great as the USRAs heavy Santa Fes.

These Consolidations had 14" (356 mm) piston valves and rolled on 80 lb/ and 100 lb/yard (40-50 kg/metre) rail.

Firebox heating surface area included 46 sq ft (4.27 sq m) in six arch tubes.

They tended to be a bit short on steam for pulls up steep grades with heavy trains.

Note that their factor of adhesion was just about 4, which suggests they weren't unduly slippery.

The class saw steam out on the L & HR and retired in 1950.

Regards,
Scott

[copperpen]

Scott

Although Peter's site does show what looks to be real world data, such data like you say is hard to find for just about every steam locomotive ever built. If a curve is not specified in the eng file, Open Rails uses a generic default derived to fit the other data in the eng file. Using the ORTSBoilerEfficiency curve can give you what you are looking for, a locomotive that performs well on the level, but is a bit short on steam when working uphill. It takes a bit of work to get the right result, matching pairs of fuel used to boiler efficiency percentage but well worth the effort.

Basically it works with the more fuel added per sq/ft of grate the lower the boiler efficiency becomes so you can make that efficiency take a sharp drop curve, a very shallow curve or anything between. Whatever curve you make will affect steam production one way or the other. If you use the sharp drop curve the visible effects will be dramatic with pressure dropping because there is more heat being taken out of the boiler than the fire is pushing in at the critical point. That is being "shy for steam".


The "stoker" model is that of a mechanical stoker, but unlike a mechanical or hand stoker, it never stops adding fuel at any point after the activity is started. It is designed to chase the ideal firemass which is derived from the grate area.

[scottb613]

copperpen, on 25 March 2019 - 07:28 AM, said:

Scott

Although Peter's site does show what looks to be real world data, such data like you say is hard to find for just about every steam locomotive ever built. If a curve is not specified in the eng file, Open Rails uses a generic default derived to fit the other data in the eng file. Using the ORTSBoilerEfficiency curve can give you what you are looking for, a locomotive that performs well on the level, but is a bit short on steam when working uphill. It takes a bit of work to get the right result, matching pairs of fuel used to boiler efficiency percentage but well worth the effort.

Basically it works with the more fuel added per sq/ft of grate the lower the boiler efficiency becomes so you can make that efficiency take a sharp drop curve, a very shallow curve or anything between. Whatever curve you make will affect steam production one way or the other. If you use the sharp drop curve the visible effects will be dramatic with pressure dropping because there is more heat being taken out of the boiler than the fire is pushing in at the critical point. That is being "shy for steam".


The "stoker" model is that of a mechanical stoker, but unlike a mechanical or hand stoker, it never stops adding fuel at any point after the activity is started. It is designed to chase the ideal firemass which is derived from the grate area.

Hi Copperpen,

Thanks so much for the more detailed information - makes sense - and I'm intrigued - I know you mentioned working on this - would you care to just throw some basic numbers at me - so I have a place to start ? I won't be able to test until I get home next weekend - lol - part of my issue is limited time with the sim...

Regards,
Scott

[longiron]

I would love to get everyone's input on how to set up a simple articulated locomotive that's two engine files - player and AI. There have been many suggestions but looking to for best OR practices in advance of releasing my route.

[steamer_ctn]

Hi Scott,
Just a quick post.
Have you looked at this page yet?

[scottb613]

steamer_ctn, on 25 March 2019 - 11:46 AM, said:

Hi Scott,
Just a quick post.
Have you looked at this page yet?

Hi Peter,

I have - I’ve probably hit all your pages off the physics link... That said - it was late - I had collected some data - even loaded it into your sample spreadsheet - went off on a tangent trying to see if I could get more data points and didn’t get back to it... Let me read thoroughly and I’ll get back to you - thanks - I can’t imagine all the time it took you to put your website together...

Regards,
Scott

[steamer_ctn]

Hi Scott,

scottb613, on 25 March 2019 - 02:15 PM, said:

I have - I’ve probably hit all your pages off the physics link... That said - it was late - I had collected some data - even loaded it into your sample spreadsheet - went off on a tangent trying to see if I could get more data points and didn’t get back to it... Let me read thoroughly and I’ll get back to you - thanks -

I would be interested in your thoughts on the information as it describes how the OR model has been designed and attempts to describe the key parameters and how they impact upon it. It may answer some of the questions that you were asking.

scottb613, on 25 March 2019 - 02:15 PM, said:

I can’t imagine all the time it took you to put your website together...

Thanks for the recognition.

Yes it has taken quite a bit of time, and is probably not completely up to date, and also some things have changed since they were originally authored.

It is my vision that it should be "easy" to set up a steam locomotive (almost like following a recipe). I would like to see a standard process that ALL could quickly (well relatively speaking) and easily follow.

Thus it would be great if users like yourself (with little detailed starting knowledge, but an interest in learning) can help me to refine and update the site. I am sure that all the questions that you have asked are on the tips of other peoples tongues.
Thanks