Elvas Tower: Moving beyond Windows XP - Elvas Tower

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Moving beyond Windows XP Why we are moving on Rate Topic: -----

#21 User is offline   Eldorado.Railroad 

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Posted 25 December 2018 - 12:35 PM

 Csantucci, on 25 December 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

Sorry, the message I received is that a newer of dotNet Framework is needed (4.7.1), and not a newer XNA version. Unfortunately the OS versions I have don't seem to support dotNet Framework 4.7.1.


Exactly!
Attached Image: NETerror.gif

I will image my Win7 system BEFORE trying this out.... too bad.

From Microsoft:

Supported Operating System Windows 10 , Windows 7 Service Pack 1, Windows 8.1, Windows Server 2008 R2 SP1, Windows Server 2012, Windows Server 2012 R2, Windows Server 2016

Supported Operating Systems:
  • Windows 7 SP1 (x86 and x64)
  • Windows 8.1 (x86 and x64)
  • Windows 10 Anniversary Update (x86 and x64)
  • Windows 10 Creators Update (x86 and x64)
  • Windows Server 2008 R2 SP1 (x64)
  • Windows Server 2012 (x64)
  • Windows Server 2012 R2 (x64)
  • Windows Server 2016 (x64)


#22 User is offline   Csantucci 

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Posted 25 December 2018 - 12:42 PM

I risked...
Network installation of .Net Framework 4.7.2 failed both on Win7 32 bit and on Win10 64 bit (the latter because I have a non-updated version of Win10, due to lack of partition space)
So I tried the local installation of .Net Framework 4.7.1 (which should succeed on Win7 32 bit SP1, accordingly to documentation), and in effect the installation succeeded. And, miracle, perpetualKid's pack worked on Win7 32 bit.

#23 User is offline   vince 

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Posted 25 December 2018 - 12:42 PM

 Eldorado.Railroad, on 23 December 2018 - 09:39 PM, said:

I admire your courage, not for train simming purposes, but for allowing yourself to be bombarded with ads, invasion of privacy, calling the mothership without your consent, messing with your default program choices, not to mention updates that erase user data!
Actually it doesn't do hat at all!

Using PowerShell (be very careful!) I was able to remove all the unwanted garbage W10 camre loaded with.

With W10, what used to be optional at install time is now all pre-installed.You have to use PowerShell and the advice/directions of a site dedicated to wgat you desire, a garbage free system.
I used MajorGeeks,com and easily configured W10 to what I wanted.

Now my Windows 10 Start Menu looks like this, all garbage gone! Removed with PowerShell.

Attached Image: W10-StartMenu.jpg

It takes a little work but you end up with a system the really is far superior to previous systems, running Open Rails smoothlySystems matter though and trying to run W10 on a system with 2Gig of memory is fantasy.My specs below.

Quote

Processor = Intel® Core™ i5-4430 CPU @ 3.00GHz (4 threads, 4 cores, 3.0 GHz) (CPU Internal L2 1024 KB) (CPU Internal L1 256 KB) (CPU Internal L3 6144 KB)
Memory = 7.9 GB
Video = NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 (1.0 GB RAM) (nvlddmkm 25.21.14.1735)
Display = \\.\DISPLAY1 (1920 x 1080, 32-bit, primary, 0 x 0)
Display = \\.\DISPLAY2 (2400 x 1350, 32-bit, 2400 x 0)
Sound = Realtek High Definition Audio (rtkvhd64 6.0.1.7111)
Sound = NVIDIA High Definition Audio (nvhda64v 1.3.38.4)
Sound = NVIDIA Virtual Audio Device (Wave Extensible) (WDM) (nvvad64v 4.8.3.0)
Disk = C: (Local Fixed Disk, NTFS, 118.6 GB, 33.1 GB free)
Disk = D: (CD-ROM Disc, UDF, 4.4 GB, 2.3 GB free)
Disk = E: (Local Fixed Disk, NTFS, 238.5 GB, 49.3 GB free)
Disk = F: (Local Fixed Disk, NTFS, 931.5 GB, 580.6 GB free)
Disk = G: (Local Fixed Disk, NTFS, 1862.4 GB, 328.1 GB free)
Disk = H: (Local Fixed Disk, NTFS, 1023.9 GB, 410.8 GB free)
OS = Microsoft Windows 10 Pro 64-bit (10.0.16299)
Runtimes = 2.0.50727 SP2 3.0 SP2 3.5 SP1 4 Client 4 Full 4.0 Client


Anything less will give increasingly poor performance . . . and probably like most folks I didn't upgrade until I was forced to by a main board failure.New MB and SSD's plus the offer of W10 free upgrade was a good reason to upgrade.Getting to learn the new W10 system was frustrating at times but all in all I give it good grades.

Merry Christmas!
vince

A note on Windows PowerShell: A VERY powerful program.
Think DOS on steroids. If you tell it to delete the entire Operating System it will happily do so.Follow directions carefully and no problem.v



#24 User is offline   hroch 

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 01:32 AM

Hello,

Why does the version from perpetualKid use the high version of Framework? In my older PC I have Win Xp and Win10. I can not update Win 10, because I'm using mobile internet connection. I do not have the possibility of another internet connection. I use Win 10 only offline. The versions from Mr. Csantucci work, because they use Net Framework 4.5.

#25 User is offline   shadowmane 

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 01:44 PM

I've been reading through a lot of stuff around here the last couple of days. It seems to me that there is a real need to split this game into Open Rails 1 and Open Rails 2, with Open Rails 2 moving on from MSTS, while Open Rails 1 is completed with the idea that once it is completed, it will be abandoned at a certain point once specific features are available. The future is the Monogame version, which should be "Open Rails 2". It doesn't mean you have to stop development, it just means you are shifting gears and moving towards the future while leaving a version of the game for MSTS users to tool around with. All of the legacy file extension will be kept and used in Open Rails 1, while the new file extension and folder setup would be used in Open Rails 2.

My one issue with Open Rails and it is an issue my youngest son also has, is that there is not really a good solution to route and activity editing. Most of that could be solved by buying a new computer (which takes money we don't currently have). He is currently building a route using the old editors and tools (because TSRE5 simply won't run on any of the systems we have without hiccuping really bad). He was upset today when I told him that when Open Rails moves to version 1.4, I'll be ditching XP and putting Ubuntu on my other XP computer. He simply hates stepping through the hoops it requires to run this game in Ubuntu. That may change with some of the new tools arriving on the scene for gaming on Linux. The DirectX to Vulkan extension for Wine will go a long way towards giving us a way to make this game playable even with our old technology computers.

As far as an activity editor, I think it's legacy and should be dropped. You can already do most of what is necessary with the Timetable Editor. If Timetable Editor was extended or forked to create a Freight Timetable Mode, where you pull from pools of locomotives and deliver blocks of cars to their destinations (even if those destinations are off-screen), complete with work orders to complete, you have your activities right there without the need for an activity editor.

I'm glad Open Rails is moving on and not looking back. MSTS people aren't really paying attention to Open Rails anyway. Complete your file system and come up with your new file extensions ASAP. Then get to work on your Consist Editor, Route Editor and work on a freight timetable mode instead of wasting time on an activity editor. You've done a great job getting this program to where it is. A few more tweaks and it's in such a stage of completion that you can move on from the legacy MSTS stuff and develop only for your program.

#26 User is offline   Mike B 

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 02:36 PM

 vince, on 25 December 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:

Actually it doesn't do hat at all!

Using PowerShell (be very careful!) I was able to remove all the unwanted garbage W10 camre loaded with.

With W10, what used to be optional at install time is now all pre-installed.You have to use PowerShell and the advice/directions of a site dedicated to wgat you desire, a garbage free system.
I used MajorGeeks,com and easily configured W10 to what I wanted.

Now my Windows 10 Start Menu looks like this, all garbage gone! Removed with PowerShell.

W10-StartMenu.jpg

It takes a little work but you end up with a system the really is far superior to previous systems, running Open Rails smoothlySystems matter though and trying to run W10 on a system with 2Gig of memory is fantasy.My specs below.


Anything less will give increasingly poor performance . . . and probably like most folks I didn't upgrade until I was forced to by a main board failure.New MB and SSD's plus the offer of W10 free upgrade was a good reason to upgrade.Getting to learn the new W10 system was frustrating at times but all in all I give it good grades.

Merry Christmas!
vince

A note on Windows PowerShell: A VERY powerful program.
Think DOS on steroids. If you tell it to delete the entire Operating System it will happily do so.Follow directions carefully and no problem.v

The best machine I have for Open Rails is a vintage-2007 Core2 Extreme with 8G RAM, a SSD boot (and running, for sims) disk, and nVidia GTX 750ti graphics. I haven't come across a route yet that pulls the frame rate below 60fps. Most of my data live on a 1TB hard disk and assorted USB backup disks. The internal 1TB is getting a bit full - need a 2TB disk but at the moment prices are not quite right.

What ORTS needs IMO is a balanced system: adequate processor (which can be less than expected, though near 3ghz clock is a reasonable minimum regardless of processor family); adequate graphics (nVidia or AMD, reasonably recent with at least 2gb video RAM, with current (not legacy) drivers); enough RAM (6-8gb minimum) that OR can have most of the first 4gb (the max for a 32-bit program); and a fast hard disk or SSD for boot, swap, and ORTS with at least 1/3 of capacity available. With that hardware, ORTS will work fine in Windows 7, 8, or 10. Compromise something and the experience suffers. For instance, using Intel processor graphics (despite the "HD" rating) will hold frame rates in the teens-20s regardless of the rest of the hardware; not sure about how well (or not) recent Ryzen-Vega integrated CPU & graphics work. A good machine otherwise without a SSD will also hit limits early. OR will run in 4gb RAM (usually around 3.5gb available due to system space usage) but performance will suffer due to virtual memory disk swapping when using modern routes and models.

I have proved to my satisfaction that while OR will start and appear to run a very simple MSTS-default activity in a 2GB tablet with Atom CPU and Windows 10, it isn't playable. Proof of concept (it'll run on anything Windows runs on) but not usable. OR does run in a laptop with i5 46M (vintage 2010), 4gb RAM, Intel graphics, and a normal laptop hard disk, and is playable for most (but not large/very detailed) routes, but frame rates run between 15-20 most of the time so only marginally playable; I'd consider something like that the bare minimum hardware, using Windows 10 or 7.

As for looking ahead and not back: OR has done a very good job of being compatible with MSTS, good enough that I haven't used MSTS in anger for a couple of years now. That compatibility needs to be kept as we move forward. The new features should continue to work with older routes and equipment to the extent feasible, and incompatibility should be clearly documented along with workarounds if available. Newer content, of course, does NOT need to be made usable in MSTS if the creator doesn't want to deal with MSTS' limits; that's realistic. There will be, over time, more stuff that is ORTS-only. But as a practical matter there will never be ORTS-only, more detailed, replacements for all of the stuff that's been developed for MSTS; the focus will certainly be different. So the need to be able, perhaps with some minimal modification, to use the olde stuffe will remain. I really don't see a good case for saying: 1.x is MSTS-compatible but abandoned; 2.x+ is not MSTS compatible so you need all new content for it. That way lies irrelevance and commercial software.

PS: you can add/remove many Windows components via the GUI. In Windows 10 Settings, go to Apps, then choose the Programs and Features option which opens up the old Control-Panel style interface. In the left pane of that window, there is a choice for Turn Windows Features On/Off - choose that and enter your admin password. You can then go through the checkboxes. I turned Internet Explorer off that way (don't need it, not a work computer). Command-line tools in Powershell can do even more, but can be dangerous and really are not needed; if the hardware is balanced and generally adequate, OR will run fine even with a lot of (usually suspended) Windows features present.

Note that (in the Windows Features checkboxes) .Net really only comes in 2 flavors now: 3.5 (for .Net software requiring .Net 2 or 3.x), and 4.7 (for software requiring any 4.x version). There is no reason to (and afaik no way to, for practical purposes) downgrade from 4.7.1 to 4.5, for instance - 4.7.1 is backward compatible, and is what a fully updated Windows 10 will have. If both are turned in on fully-updated Win10, you will have .Net 3.5 SP1 and .Net 4.7.1 (as of the date of this writing).

#27 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 04:54 PM

 Mike B, on 26 December 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:


What ORTS needs IMO is a balanced system: adequate processor (which can be less than expected, though near 3ghz clock is a reasonable minimum regardless of processor family); adequate graphics (nVidia or AMD, reasonably recent with at least 2gb video RAM, with current (not legacy) drivers); enough RAM (6-8gb minimum) that OR can have most of the first 4gb (the max for a 32-bit program); and a fast hard disk or SSD for boot, swap, and ORTS with at least 1/3 of capacity available. With that hardware, ORTS will work fine in Windows 7, 8, or 10. Compromise something and the experience suffers.


It entirely depends on what is in the route. I can show you a scene on one route w/ 15000 primitives in it (not counting shadow primitives) that would bring your balanced system to it's knees (easilly fps well < 10) and of course a different scene w/ 1500 primitives that flies along on any system.

#28 User is offline   R H Steele 

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 10:18 PM

 Genma Saotome, on 26 December 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

It entirely depends on what is in the route. ...


That is precisely why I have always wanted route specific settings for OR...cached somewhere, so that whenever a specific route is used, a specific set of game options are called up.

#29 User is offline   Mike B 

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Posted 27 December 2018 - 01:20 AM

 Genma Saotome, on 26 December 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

It entirely depends on what is in the route. I can show you a scene on one route w/ 15000 primitives in it (not counting shadow primitives) that would bring your balanced system to it's knees (easilly fps well < 10) and of course a different scene w/ 1500 primitives that flies along on any system.

You're right, and as in the MSTS days a route or model with unusually large amounts of detail should have a prominent statement in the readme of what machine it was tested on for a given performance level. Those who don't have that kind of hardware might not want the route, or might want to download and file it pending some future upgrade, or might want to pull back on some of the detail settings. That kind of statement was common for large and/or detailed MSTS routes of the late 2000s and early 2010s, as the limits of the sim were pushed. I just haven't run across such a route in Open Rails, yet, among those generally available and that I'm interested in.

#30 User is offline   shadowmane 

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Posted 27 December 2018 - 06:33 AM

There are quite a few routes I currently have that I can't use. Zigzag, the OR Demo Route, LIRR, just to name a few. Even Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway gives me problems. I love these routes when I can use them, but if I start in certain places on those routes, the computer grinds to a halt.

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