[atsf37l]

Running 4230 from the "final evaluation" before 1.3 and when applying the brakes there used to be detents or notches in the movement of the controls. When setting the air you would have to hold down the ' key or tap it twice to go from full service to emergency. When releasing the same was true allowing you to stop at running without releasing the brake. The running to release detent is still there but the full service to emergency is no longer in place.

[steamer_ctn]

atsf37l, on 27 October 2018 - 11:57 PM, said:

Running 4230 from the "final evaluation" before 1.3 and when applying the brakes there used to be detents or notches in the movement of the controls. When setting the air you would have to hold down the ' key or tap it twice to go from full service to emergency. When releasing the same was true allowing you to stop at running without releasing the brake. The running to release detent is still there but the full service to emergency is no longer in place.

This functionality appeared to restrict the movement of the brake into the EMERGENCY position, and it was "disabled" pending further investigation.

Similar code does not appear to exist (?) for RUNNING to RELEASE functionality.

I am happy to look into this further with you, but it may not be corrected for v1.3.

What brake type are you using in the locomotive that you are running?

Thanks

[atsf37l]

steamer_ctn, on 28 October 2018 - 11:22 PM, said:

This functionality appeared to restrict the movement of the brake into the EMERGENCY position, and it was "disabled" pending further investigation.

Similar code does not appear to exist (?) for RUNNING to RELEASE functionality.

I am happy to look into this further with you, but it may not be corrected for v1.3.

What brake type are you using in the locomotive that you are running?

Thanks

Brakes are non self lapping air:
BrakeEquipmentType( "Triple_valve, Auxilary_reservoir, Emergency brake reservoir, Handbrake" )
BrakeSystemType( "Air_single_pipe" )
MaxBrakeForce( 100.0kN )
EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure( 110 )

MaxHandbrakeForce( 90kN )
NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 )

Control set is:
Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.1 0
NumNotches( 6
Notch(0 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
Notch(0.2 0 TrainBrakesControllerRunningStart )
Notch(0.4 0 TrainBrakesControllerSelfLapStart )
Notch(0.5 1 TrainBrakesControllerApplyStart )
Notch(0.9 0 TrainBrakesControllerFullServiceStart )
Notch(1.0 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart )

I am surprised by what you say about the running and release and the code. I do know that once you begin to set up the air and you come back to running that there is a momentary delay before going into release, to prevent accidental release of the brakes.

In a real cab with a 6-ET non-self lapping brake valve you move the handle from running or release to the service position, "Apply" in the sim - a little into it for a light application and more toward full service for a heavy application. When you are satisfied with the amount of the set you move the handle to the "Self Lap" or "Running" position and the air stops bleeding off, holding the train brake in a status quo state. Without that slight pause using a push button control you could easily slip over to release and you've lost your brake set and have to start over as your passenger train slides past the platform. LOL!

I know this code is still in place as I just used it, running OR build 4279 just last night. It may be that I'm such a good hogger as to know right when to stop, but I doubt it. :) A pause between "Full Service" and "Emergency" is a nice to have but not having a pause between "Running" and "Release" is dangerous to the operation. As to the "Emergency" thing, a real air brake system will drain the line when you hit "Emergency," locking up your brakes and requiring you to restore air in your system before you could proceed When the pause was there, the sim act just like the real thing. Now that the pause is gone it does not, allowing you to quickly get out of "Emergency" and continue with set and lap and release - a decidedly non-prototypical handling of the air. I just verified the pauses and the handling of an accidental emergency with Beta version 3848 from May of last year.

It is now easier to run but not as realistic. :bigboss:

[steamer_ctn]

To demonstrate the issue with the Emergency code, and why it was "disabled", try adding the following controller to the default MSTS Flying Scotsman, and then try and move the brake to the EMERGENCY position.

Brake_Train ( 0 1 0.1 0.4
   NumNotches ( 4
    	Notch ( 0   0 TrainBrakesControllerFullQuickReleaseStart )
    	Notch ( 0.1 0 TrainBrakesControllerReleaseStart )
    	Notch ( 0.2 1 TrainBrakesControllerContinuousServiceStart )
    	Notch ( 0.9 0 TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart )
    	)) 

Then try setting the TrainBrakesControllerContinuousServiceStart control to a notch, ie replace the 1 with a zero, and repeat the exercise to move it into the EMERGENCY position.

In regard to the brake type, you reference the 6-ET type of brake, is this the one that you are trying to model?

My interpretation of the 6-ET is that it has 5 notch positions, so I don't quite understand the need for additional controller position, or the reason why it is set to smooth operation, rather then as a notch.

In the setups that I use for the 6-ET, they are all notches, hence a key press is required to move to each notch position. I can understand that perhaps quick multiple pressing of the keys, could result in going into the EMERGENCY position, however I believe that the movement between different notches should not require rapid movement in OR to achieve a workable driving outcome.

After v1.3, I was looking at doing some work on air brake propagation, similar to what was done on vacuum brakes, so if you are interested in providing some assistance with knowledge and testing, I would be happy to look at some particular brake models with you.

[atsf37l]

This current exchange of messages has really begun to irritate me so I will apologize in advance if I seem a little sarcastic or angry.

This is not my first rodeo with airbrakes and ORTS. For a thorough discussion of the problem and the solutions that were previously put into place and have apparently been removed and/or altered to what we have today, please review the following 19 page thread:
Previous Discussion

I worked long and hard with the ORTS developers four years ago to obtain proper working air brakes on these trains and I am sorely disappointed to see that those changes and features have been lost by those who don't understand US brake practices.

No sorry, the only thing I have in my 2001 "Scotsman" folder are the sound and cabview folders. Long since erased. Since I am up to my ears in route development I don't have time right now to fight this battle over again.

Please do some homework and put things back the way they were, because when the RGS is finished and released I intend to do lots of mountain railroading. I'll need proper brakes to handle the grades.

[shoves soapbox back under the bed] :bigboss:

[atsf37l]

On the statement you made about notches and smooth operation - the "Service" - "apply" in the sim - on the 6-ET is a smooth operation from light Service to full service, with notches on either end (Release - which is actually a smooth operation from normal release to quick service - Running and lap on the left end of the sweep and emergency notch on the right or full end of the sweep. Since push button control can't be set up to have notches AND smooth sections the only thing that works is smooth action with "detents" built into the control operation. It's been done before. Please put it back.

[atsf37l]

I really am sorry for my incivility. Born of frustration, I'm afraid. Realizing that we will never get the transfer of a brass analog air valve 100% correct in a digital world, still I hope we can work towards an accommodation. Oh how I long for the feel of the brass handle and it's operation! Push buttons just don't translate well in whistles and air brakes. :bigboss:

[steamer_ctn]

atsf37l, on 30 October 2018 - 01:00 PM, said:

I really am sorry for my incivility.

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

This has helped me to stop wanting to blow off steam, and it has changed the tone of my response accordingly.

atsf37l, on 30 October 2018 - 01:00 PM, said:

Realizing that we will never get the transfer of a brass analog air valve 100% correct in a digital world, still I hope we can work towards an accommodation. Oh how I long for the feel of the brass handle and it's operation! Push buttons just don't translate well in whistles and air brakes. :bigboss:

I agree, but that doesn't have to stop us aspiring to get the simulator working as "realistic" as possible.

I can understand your disappointment at potentially having to revisit an area that you thought might have been completed. However I also believe that being open to reviewing something from time to time will ultimately lead to a better quality outcome. For example, if we hadn't been reviewing OR right from the beginning, then we would still be back with the original release.

At the moment, I am not comfortable to reinstate relevant code in the form that it is. It is apparent that it could create bugs for some users.

In regards to the best way to fix this, I believe that the Brake Control Tokens (eg TrainBrakesControllerEmergencyStart, etc) need to be defined for specific brake types and operation (eg 6-ET, 24-RL, etc) so that any difference in operation between the brake types can be catered for effectively. Sadly I suspect that some ENG files have a mixture of tokens that should not even be grouped together.