Elvas Tower: curious issue speed limit - Elvas Tower

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curious issue speed limit

#1 User is offline   QJ-6811 

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 05:12 AM

Probably difficult to answer, but I have a curious issue.

On a route (Val-de-Travers) I use timetable mode. However, on two sections (Travers-Butte) of the route I always have an emergency stop when I ride one of the trains (Player train) at >40km/h (overspeed) on the main line. OK, clearly, somewhere must be a combination in the route that causes this.
However, in F5-Hud and F4 I see nicely the "mainline speed" of 80-90km/h, also the message "allow speed to ..." one gets. Further there are no obstacles, such as yellow signal or deflecting point (40km/h limitation).

It is even stranger when use the same train/route/path in Explorer mode, or even better, if I use the Player train in manual mode (CTR-M), I have no problems and can use the allowed speed of 80-90km/h.

- Someone an idea what makes Timetable mode in combination with max speed different?
- Or how to check what triggers (or not) the maximum allowable speed. (how to extra debug?)

(I'm a bit out of possible ideas what causes it.....)

#2 User is offline   roeter 

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 02:52 AM

It would be interesting to know how the train performs when it runs as AI train, that can be observed using the F5 hud.
Also, have you checked for any speedposts in that area using the route editor?

Regards,
Rob Roeterdink

#3 User is offline   QJ-6811 

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 03:02 AM

I can not open this route with RE, so I did not create an Activity. Hence the TimeTablemode application, which in itself works much nicer. :D
Is the F5-Hud much different than what you see now? (btw, Equal train like AI drives 80km/h, if you mean that?)

Attached Image: Open Rails 2018-08-09 11-39-29b.jpg



Yes, already tried a lot. New and older OR releases tested. Multiple trains. Speedposts checked, replaced and placed extra on the route (if there is a "distance problem" or something). All changes are visible (such as extra speed indications in F4, etc.) but do not provide a solution.
Another influence can of course be the signals (perhaps old speed limits, etc.). Also compared, sometimes partly replaced, but I think there is nothing wrong, and also gives no solution.
A 3rd influence can of course still be the .ENG files. Only now I know 100% sure when I turn off "MonitorDeviceTriggerOnTrackOverspeed (0)", I have no problems ........

Well, good old days, that train drivers still have to think for themselves and monitor the speed ...... :) :)

OK, for the time being continue puzzling, for now I do not see any difference with "good and bad" locations, even more difficult that the various locations have no similarities .... But of course if you know what to look for ...

To be continued.

(Ps, if anyone is interested in a copy of the route, please let me know)

Regards, Roger

#4 User is offline   roeter 

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 10:58 AM

Does the problem occur in or near a curve?
In that case, check if you have selected the option "Curve dependent speed limit" (Main menu, Simulation tab). That could explain why it only affects the player train.

Regards,
Rob Roeterdink

#5 User is offline   QJ-6811 

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Posted 10 August 2018 - 12:21 PM

No, nothing to do with "Curve dependent speed limit". (or TCS or ETCS or "end of train free", etc.)
Furthermore I drive fairly quiet, so usually 10-15 km/h under the max speed. (have not received a speed penalty yet..... :) )

Yesterday and today a lot of tested and tried.
In summary, two more places discovered with such a fault, only here do only certain trains suffer? At one station these are two "long" trains, so maybe multiple signals or speedpost are activated? (further investigation).
At another station gives one train problem after a 60km/h signal speed limit, so later an emergency stop at >60km/h. Funny thing is that I had expected that it was a signal setting (link) or path was the cause, but when changing the trains (consist) moved the complaint ....
Yes, also check the .eng files, but can not discover any problems. If length is the problem, then here it is the shortest train .....

Some conclusion so far:
1) that it goes wrong with "Monitor Device TriggerOnTrackOverspeed (1)".
2) In case of an error, the entire route (station to station) continues to go wrong.

At previous picture the train has left the station after 2 green signals passed "free" and speedpost 80km/h (see max speed in F4). Even if you pass the next speed posts after the emergency stop (60 and 80km/h in this example) the trigger of overspeed >40km/h remains. IOW, solved after passing next station.

Although I still can not make a hard conclusion which is really the "root cause", it seems suspicious for two possible problems
1) max. speed of the last signal with speed restriction (eg entry signal) is no longer updated by "signal free" or speedpost.
2) Perhaps illogical, but it seems as if speed restriction in the opposite direction / path is maintained.

For the last thought I changed the opposite entry signal from "max. 40km/h" to "max. 60km/h" in the situation (as picture).
Error> 40km/h persists after passage station, however, if I return after emergency stop (manual CTR-M) and once again departure (so again CTR-M auto) I had previously emergency top at >40km/h again, now >60km/h ......

OK, to be continued, for the moment it remains a mystery.
I think that I put "overspeed" on all trains off. As already mentioned, a train driver must pay attention to the speeds himself.
And do not forget, 95% of the rest of the route goes well.


Regards/Roger

#6 User is offline   QJ-6811 

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 08:45 AM

Well, eventually found the cause. :sweatingbullets:

In several tests with the problem of "short train" showed that the length was indeed decisive here. However, not the distance between signal and main line or the like, but the distance at the beginning of the main track, between "Bahnhofendemarke" (virtual exit signal) and speedpost. (......)
If the train was shorter than the distance between them, then you got hereafter the problem with the emergency stop.
So in TSRE5 the speedpost moved up to this signal, problem solved.
This shows that the speedpost has an influence on the increase of the "signal speed".

When testing at other locations (such as the picture above) also such a problem.
It also appears here that the signal speed limitation and subsequent speed items (speedpost) are displayed in F4 and F5-HUD. However, if an exit signal (such as "Bahnhofendemarke" or "Streckenausfahsignal") does not have a speedpost with this signal, then the "signal speed" is not increased / updated at the exit signal. (even if it is "free maximum") Moreover, this is mostly nowhere visible ..... !! :ko2:

Example:
Incoming signal is at 40km/h limitation. In station speedpost is placed with 80km/h. Then exit signal (without limitation) to main track.
In F4 you see "yellow-40 km/h", then "80 km/h", then "green" and the next speedposts further on. When leaving the station, F4 show "80km/h". However, the exit signal is not "updated" and It appears that "overspeed trigger" remains underwater at "40km h", which ultimately causes hereafter the "overspeed emergency stop 40km/h".

I do not want to make any conclusions whether this is yes/no the result of "timetable mode", the "used signals", "wrong configuration" or OR itself. (?)
It is and remains complex ......... :) :)

It turns out that in Explorer mode or Manual mode you have no problems with "incorrect overspeed triggers".
In fact, overspeed trigger works at the lowest permitted speed of speedpost or signal. However, it appears (In TimeTable mode?) that an increase in the allowed speed is not done directly by a speedpost, but must be updated by a (next) signal. (and that must then be properly configured and work)


Best regards, Roger

#7 User is offline   eugenR 

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Posted 17 August 2018 - 07:39 AM

The Problem occours in TT-Mode if a signal with reduced speed is followed by a speedpost with higher speed.
In activity Mode in this case the allowed speed is holded also after this speedplate on the reduced Signalspeed.

In TT-Mode, the allowed Speed (F4) will raise to the speedlimit of this speedplate, what is describet so in the manual. But the Speedlimit of the overspeedmonitor is holded on the old reduced signalspeed. If I accelerate the Train after the Speedpost by some M/h the Overspeedmonitor is stopping the Train.

Bugreport and testroute look here:
https://bugs.launchp...or/+bug/1787609

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