[slipperman]

Hi,
When swapping from one train to another, has anybody had a case of "the vanishing tender"? If so, is there a solution, please?

Attached are two screen shots, before and after the train swap - the blue loco is the one being switched to.

The odd thing is that it doesn't happen with all tenders, which, obviously, makes it difficult to determine the cause.



The original Player train is the one just behind the "blue" loco, and has departed by the time the second shot was taken!

Cheers,
Ged

EDIT : Further investigation shows that the disappearing tender only occurs when, after switching from the Player to first AI loco then to second AI loco followed by a return to the first AI loco. The latter loco looses its tender. In a similar situation, a fellow user has encountered a "flying tender", of which the wheels are at about 90 degrees to the body! I have not seen this yet!!

[dennisat]

slipperman, on 04 April 2018 - 09:56 AM, said:

Hi,
When swapping from one train to another, has anybody had a case of "the vanishing tender"? If so, is there a solution, please?

....a "flying tender", of which the wheels are at about 90 degrees to the body! I have not seen this yet!!

I've had several cases of the vanishing vehicle when jumping, not just tenders. Normally it's because OR doesn't like the WHEELS configuration in the shape file. Why it displays correctly at first I haven't investigated. In a bogie vehicle, OR likes the WHEELS11 WHEELS12, WHEELS21 WHEELS22 configuration. You find all sorts of weirdies in some shape files which MSTS somehow deals with. I recently had a vanishing tender and it was the same sort of problem but I can't recall the WHEELS configuration that cured it or even which tender! Editing the shape file cures the problem. I'll try and find it later today, too many distractions from train simming at the moment. I've not come across the 90 degree twist yet but I've seen somewhere some topics on that subject, I think it was on Elvas Tower.

Dennis

[tary5]

dennisat, on 04 April 2018 - 11:13 PM, said:

I've had several cases of the vanishing vehicle when jumping, not just tenders. Normally it's because OR doesn't like the WHEELS configuration in the shape file. Why it displays correctly at first I haven't investigated. In a bogie vehicle, OR likes the WHEELS11 WHEELS12, WHEELS21 WHEELS22 configuration. You find all sorts of weirdies in some shape files which MSTS somehow deals with. I recently had a vanishing tender and it was the same sort of problem but I can't recall the WHEELS configuration that cured it or even which tender! Editing the shape file cures the problem. I'll try and find it later today, too many distractions from train simming at the moment. I've not come across the 90 degree twist yet but I've seen somewhere some topics on that subject, I think it was on Elvas Tower.

Dennis

Thank's for your information Dennis. At least I know it's not just me!!! Will watch this space.

Best regards

Terry White

[slipperman]

Hi All,
I should have said 'the wheels are up to 90 degrees to the body'. I'm sure Terry won't mind me sharing a couple of his screenshots!

Cheers,
Ged

[dennisat]

tary5, on 05 April 2018 - 12:46 AM, said:

Thank's for your information Dennis. At least I know it's not just me!!! Will watch this space.

Hi,

The tender I had the problem with is Severn Valley Railway BA_BR_Manor_7802.
The shape file originally contained these lines:

		matrix FRAME ( -1 0 3.25841e-007 0 1 0 -3.25841e-007 0 -1 0 0.847309 -2.94492 )
		matrix FRAME ( 0.5 -0.858036 -0.117366 0.866026 0.495387 0.0677613 -1.50306e-009 -0.135523 0.990774 -1.14818 3.30556 2.36812 )
		matrix FRAME ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1.2059 2.00851 3.50532 )
		matrix FRAME ( -1 0 3.25841e-007 0 1 0 -3.25841e-007 0 -1 -1.3034 2.07162 -3.17895 )
		matrix FRAME ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 -0.65 3.05535 -3.29498 )
		matrix BOGIE1 ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0.95 0.757988 0.30182 )
		matrix WHEELS11 ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 -1.78 -0.095 2.2103 )
		matrix WHEELS21 ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 -1.78 -0.095 -2.3617 )
		matrix WHEELS12 ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 -1.78 -0.095 -0.0755999 )
		matrix FRAME ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0.68 0.714002 0.30182 )
		matrix FRAME ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 -0.0100002 2.81235 1.05612 )
		matrix GROUP ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1.10135 -3.31152 )
		matrix GROUP ( -1 0 3.25841e-007 0 1 0 -3.25841e-007 0 -1 0.873362 1.47962 -3.20367 )
		matrix GROUP ( -1 0 3.25841e-007 0 1 0 -3.25841e-007 0 -1 0 1.08735 -3.4365 )
		matrix FRAME ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0.667789 0.628021 )
		matrix GROUP ( -0.173648 0.983074 0.058405 0.984808 0.173343 0.0102984 0 0.059306 -0.99824 -1.22305 3.24995 2.32052 )
		matrix GROUP ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1.43051e-005 1.5514 3.33509 )

I left the lines in exactly the same order but changed WHEELS11 to WHEELS21, WHEELS21 to WHEELS11 and WHEELS12 to WHEELS31 as below:

		matrix WHEELS21 ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 -1.78 -0.095 2.2103 )
		matrix WHEELS11 ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 -1.78 -0.095 -2.3617 )
		matrix WHEELS31 ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 -1.78 -0.095 -0.0755999 )

I didn't experiment to find this solution. I found a 3 axle tender somewhere that didn't vanish on jumping and copied its WHEELS configuration. In my case, this cured the problem. It'll be interesting to hear if it cures yours.
Incidentally, noting that some people are having problems compressing / uncompressing files, in this instance I used Shape File Manager.

Dennis

[slipperman]

Hi Dennis,
Thanks mate :)

The tender for 46206(blue loco in my screenshot) had the following 'Wheels' entries :

Quote

matrix WHEELS11 ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0.7175 0.05 2.29 )
matrix WHEELS12 ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0.7175 0.05 0 )
matrix WHEELS13 ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0.7191 0.05 -2.2859 )

Taking your idea a little further, I wondered if Open Rails objected to any second digit other than 1, so I changed them to :

Quote

matrix WHEELS11 ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0.7175 0.05 2.29 )
matrix WHEELS21 ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0.7175 0.05 0 )
matrix WHEELS31 ( 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0.7191 0.05 -2.2859 )

I don't know if this is the definitive solution, but after numerous swaps to and from this loco, the tender didn't disappear. As I haven't had the "flying tenders", I don't know if that is also solved.

Cheers,
Ged

[tary5]

slipperman, on 05 April 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

Hi Dennis,
Thanks mate :)

The tender for 46206(blue loco in my screenshot) had the following 'Wheels' entries :


Taking your idea a little further, I wondered if Open Rails objected to any second digit other than 1, so I changed them to :


I don't know if this is the definitive solution, but after numerous swaps to and from this loco, the tender didn't disappear. As I haven't had the "flying tenders", I don't know if that is also solved.

Cheers,
Ged

Hi Dennis & Ged

This looks like something to work with. I will try and have a go with disappearing and flying tenders in the morning (Fri) and see if I too can get a result. Thank you both for sharing info.

Goodnight

Terry

[slipperman]

Hi,
It appears that the problem is not caused by the shape files' Wheels entries and my previous success was short-lived!!

After further, admittedly limited, testing, the problem might be occurring with tenders built using 3DC. A TSM built tender didn't disappear after numerous to and fro swaps. All tenders in my tests had Wheels entries of 11, 12 and 13 in their shape files.

Nothing is shown on the OR log.

Cheers,
Ged

[copperpen]

slipperman, on 10 April 2018 - 01:49 PM, said:

Hi,
It appears that the problem is not caused by the shape files' Wheels entries and my previous success was short-lived!!

After further, admittedly limited, testing, the problem might be occurring with tenders built using 3DC. A TSM built tender didn't disappear after numerous to and fro swaps. All tenders in my tests had Wheels entries of 11, 12 and 13 in their shape files.

Nothing is shown on the OR log.

Cheers,
Ged

If the tender is modelled with a single bogie then the wheels should be numbered as you show, the initial 1 is the bogie link and the second digit is the wheel number on that bogie. If one of the wheelsets begins with 2 it really belongs to a second bogie, which if not modelled may be the cause with OR looking for and not finding the second bogie. The animation section is only one place that needs to be checked as there is also the Matrix part of the shape file that contains these names and both places should have the same names for the same parts.