Elvas Tower: Vacuum brakes in diesel activity - Elvas Tower

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#1 User is offline   beresford 

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 08:04 AM

Playing a freight activity with a Class 31 in Black Country 1 route.

I notice that the dual-needle vacuum brake display in the cab doesn't work properly; there used to be a similar problem with these displays in steam cabs.

The lefthand needle (Train Pressure) goes to 10 when the brakes are off and 26 when the brakes are applied. I would expect it to be zero when the brakes are applied and near 21 when the brakes are off.

The righthand needle (which I believe to be the Master Pressure) goes to 15 when the brakes are applied and up to 26 when the brakes are off. I would expect it to be 21 unless the vacuum ejector (which I'm not sure OR models) is off.

I also noticed sometimes that when shunting wagons the brakes can be taken off moving forward but when you try to reverse after a brake application the train pipe value (on the HUD) can only be moved using Shift /.

#2 User is offline   darwins 

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 11:56 AM

I am interested to start some testing to help steamer_ctn to make vacuum brakes function reasonably well in OR.

Firstly it might be interesting to look at the loco you are using. Could you share where it was downloaded from if it is freeware or send me the .eng file to look at if it is not.

Hopefully it will soon be possible to have vacuum brakes working well on steam, diesel and electric locos.

Quote


The lefthand needle (Train Pressure) goes to 10 when the brakes are off and 26 when the brakes are applied. I would expect it to be zero when the brakes are applied and near 21 when the brakes are off.


That is certainly correct and makes me wonder at first if there is some confusion between units of psi and in Hg somewhere.

Quote

The righthand needle (which I believe to be the Master Pressure) goes to 15 when the brakes are applied and up to 26 when the brakes are off. I would expect it to be 21 unless the vacuum ejector (which I'm not sure OR models) is off.


Certainly it reservoir pressure should remain high, I don't think it should not dip during a brake application. Control of the exhauster would be automatic on a diesel. Reservoir vacuum might dip when brakes are released but should recover again ahead of the train pipe. On steam the reservoir (if there was one) was at 21 in Hg the same as the train pipe. For diesel and electric I believe it should be 26 to 28 in Hg.

#3 User is offline   beresford 

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 08:32 AM

View Postdarwins, on 10 December 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

I am interested to start some testing to help steamer_ctn to make vacuum brakes function reasonably well in OR.

Firstly it might be interesting to look at the loco you are using. Could you share where it was downloaded from if it is freeware or send me the .eng file to look at if it is not.



OK. I've just run the same scenario in MSTS and the gauge doesn't work properly there either, so it could be something in the ENG file. :sign_oops:

Attached File(s)



#4 User is offline   darwins 

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 12:42 AM

Hi,

This is one of the better MSTS locos in terms of working in OR. Most of the parameters have correct values. There are a lot of MSTS diesel locos with strange combinations of air and vacuum brake values for the brake parameters that can not be expected to work in OR.

I think the only solution to this will be for patches (official or unofficial) to be made where OR .eng files are put in Open Rails folders for the locomotives concerned. This can be done at present for air braked locos if you want improved physics in OR. However I would advise against doing this for vacuum braked stock until vacuum brakes have been properly set up in OR.

When work on vacuum brakes is complete it ought to be possible to have a reservoir gauge that tells you the vacuum in the main reservoir. Please be patient until then.

Darwin

#5 User is offline   darwins 

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 08:32 AM

View Postberesford, on 23 December 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

OK. I've just run the same scenario in MSTS and the gauge doesn't work properly there either, so it could be something in the ENG file. :sign_oops:

The error seems to be in the cab view file. Open the file (Class31CC.cvf) in a ConText editor and find the following lines

Dial (
Type ( BRAKE_PIPE DIAL )
Position ( 286 321 7 26 )
Graphic ( ..\\..\\common.cab\\Class_31\\needle_pressure.ace )
Style ( NEEDLE )
ScaleRange ( 0 30 )
ScalePos ( 8 165 )
Units ( PSI )
Pivot ( 19 )
DirIncrease ( 1 )
)
Dial (
Type ( EQ_RES DIAL )
Position ( 286 321 7 26 )
Graphic ( ..\\..\\common.cab\\Class_31\\needle_pressure.ace )
Style ( NEEDLE )
ScaleRange ( 0 30 )
ScalePos ( 350 195 )
Units ( PSI )
Pivot ( 19 )
DirIncrease ( 0 )
)


and try replacing them with:


Dial (
Type ( BRAKE_PIPE DIAL )
Position ( 286 321 7 26 )
Graphic ( ..\\..\\common.cab\\Class_31\\needle_pressure.ace )
Style ( NEEDLE )
ScaleRange ( 0 30 )
ScalePos ( 188 345 )
Units ( INCHES_OF_MERCURY )
Pivot ( 19 )
DirIncrease ( 0 )
)
Dial (
Type ( EQ_RES DIAL )
Position ( 286 321 7 26 )
Graphic ( ..\\..\\common.cab\\Class_31\\needle_pressure.ace )
Style ( NEEDLE )
ScaleRange ( 0 30 )
ScalePos ( 170 375 )
Units ( INCHES_OF_MERCURY )
Pivot ( 19 )
DirIncrease ( 1 )
)


See if that helps you! (Have just started to look at Diesels... )

#6 User is offline   Stephen 

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:23 AM

Hi All,

Until about 2 weeks ago Vacuum Brakes, once correctly set, have worked well with both DMU's and Diesel Engines. Now the only way to release the brakes is to use shift+/ (bail off brakes)but this only releases to 16inHg not the full 21inHg and the train moves slowly, if at all. If the maximum brake pressure in the eng file is changed from 21 to 16inHg then the train will move off normally. There is no problem with steam engines.

Sorry, I don't know which weekly update version has created this problem - I'm currently using X4074.

Regards,

Stephen

#7 User is offline   steamer_ctn 

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 02:06 AM

View PostStephen, on 19 February 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

Until about 2 weeks ago Vacuum Brakes, once correctly set, have worked well with both DMU's and Diesel Engines. Now the only way to release the brakes is to use shift+/ (bail off brakes)but this only releases to 16inHg not the full 21inHg and the train moves slowly, if at all. If the maximum brake pressure in the eng file is changed from 21 to 16inHg then the train will move off normally. There is no problem with steam engines.

Sorry, I don't know which weekly update version has created this problem - I'm currently using X4074.

Some work is currently being done on the vacuum brakes.

Can you name some of the locomotives that you are experiencing problems with?

Thanks

#8 User is online   dennisat 

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 12:46 PM

View PostStephen, on 19 February 2018 - 06:23 AM, said:

Until about 2 weeks ago Vacuum Brakes, once correctly set, have worked well with both DMU's and Diesel Engines....


I've also experienced this problem with vacuum braked diesel locos / DMUs recently. I haven't had time to really examine why it occurs but it seems that if you change BrakeSystemType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe" ) in the Wagon section to BrakeSystemType ( "Air_single_pipe" ) the brakes at least work normally! BrakeSystemType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe" ) in the Engine section can be left as is. Steam locos seem to work OK.

Dennis

#9 User is offline   steamer_ctn 

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 06:01 PM

Hopefully some of these issues should now be corrected in #4077

Thanks

#10 User is offline   Stephen 

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 07:05 AM

Hi,

Quote

Can you name some of the locomotives that you are experiencing problems with?


Here are samples:- IJ_Class33_33065vac from IJ_33041_065_Blue
BR-D6306 NBL Type 2
D800
RF_D1022 from RF_D1057
NSE117
RF_Class121_BG
KB_Class118_BG

Quote

I've also experienced this problem with vacuum braked diesel locos / DMUs recently. I haven't had time to really examine why it occurs but it seems that if you change BrakeSystemType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe" ) in the Wagon section to BrakeSystemType ( "Air_single_pipe" ) the brakes at least work normally! BrakeSystemType ( "Vacuum_single_pipe" ) in the Engine section can be left as is. Steam locos seem to work OK.


The problem is that they used to work and now they don't unless you modify the eng.files which some people aren't prepared to do. See my earlier post for my temporary solution.

Quote

Hopefully some of these issues should now be corrected in #4077


Thank you.

Stephen

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