[shadowmane]

Wow. You guys do much more tinkering with physics than I do. For me, if the train just goes where I want it to, I'm doing well. I've never driven a real train, so I have no frame or reference on how it's supposed to "feel" to operate it.

[Genma Saotome]

shadowmane, on 01 January 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

Wow. You guys do much more tinkering with physics than I do. For me, if the train just goes where I want it to, I'm doing well. I've never driven a real train, so I have no frame or reference on how it's supposed to "feel" to operate it.

IMO the stuff that is most commonly wrong in stock MSTS files is the Friction() data. Get that corrected and you'll be about 75% of the way to pretty darn realistic. I'd guess brake data would be number two in the list to examine and as needed fix.

[shadowmane]

I would love to see your system setup. I read over at Trainsim how you did it from a post put up a little over a year ago and it's opened my eyes. But I'm still wrapping my head around it. If I could see the complete filesystem setup with all of the folders and subfolders it would really help me. I'm still struggling to set up a mini-route without using Route Riter. I know it can be done by copying some files into the four folders, but I'm not clear on what is needed. I know some of the older routes I use need the MSTS files, but I'm not clear on which ones. I know the /Global folder is important, but I don't want to copy all of the files from MSTS when they aren't needed. I know those files are important for the routes that have the install batch file.

I've primarily stuck to some of the older fictional routes. Fantasii makes my system struggle, as does LIRR. Zigzag is pretty much useless to me at present. I saw how some of you have the game set up with all of the routes in one folder, and all of the rolling stock in another folder/subfolder setup with other files pointing the game to those folders. I would love a system like that for myself, but I have a lot to learn just about aliasing engine and wagon files.

[Genma Saotome]

In reply to Gerry's comments here, some additional generic thoughts that would be off topic in his thread.

Gerry, good to see you are still pushing thru stuff.

WRT \common_OTRS, I don't see any need to designate any folder with OR or ORTS when it is only Open Rails that will make use of it. It's sort of redundant in the same way \Trainset_msts would have been redundant in 2001.

Were the common.snd and common.cab folders a KUJU idea or did the come from the community? At any rate when I started to fiddle w/ include files my central repository went thru several name changes, much as you have seen in your own work, and finally turned to common.something as it seemed to make good sense so I think "common." is a good convention to follow (IMO including the dot) -- looks like you mostly agree too, but what is the best word to use for what follows???

I picked common.fleet only on account of the word fleet suggesting something rather pretty universal to most everything in \trainset but perhaps it is not the best choice. Is there a better word to use? Common.Roster perhaps? Common.Equipment? That might be better... how does Common.Component sound? That gets to the heart of it but I'm not sure it would be grasped as quickly by others. Do you have any suggestions?

I note your use of \Locomotive. I've thought about that too... it's really tempting. If we go with that perhaps it would be better to use an abbreviation - \Loco; I know folks are used to the string "eng" but truth to tell that big machine we see rumbling down the tracks is not an engine, it's a locomotive -- the engine is inside the locomotive (and in the old days was the cylinders and coupled driving wheels). We don't call automobiles engines -- look at that Ford engine taking that corner! -- let's not call locomotives engines either.

I've not received much feedback on my ideas of using country codes as an organizing method... perhaps it is not needed after all. Further thought on my part leads me to consider I'd probably be doing unique mini-routes for different countries in which case it would be pretty automatic to achieve the same organization I was thinking about... I expect others would do so too... another reason to drop it. Any thoughts on that?

Last topic: \common.fleet with or without \common.model; I did not start out with \common.model... everything went into the \common.fleet folder. It quickly became apparent the major issue with this related to distribution, not storage. What does one do when you have identical classes of locomotives from multiple people, each with their own ideas about what values to use in their .eng or .wag files? How do you keep an updated set of files from one guy squashing that the other guy did? What to do with stuff you have edited yourself? That led me to use folder names like "\SD-7 from BLW" (and as you noted the PW people could be doing their own thing, something like "\BLW\SD-7"). Point is there could quickly be a lot of these folders. After trying several approaches I settled on this concept: \common.fleet would hold only .inc files that either the community has accepted as the best on offer... or that I, for my own files, have designated best IMO. Everything else... all that stuff we leave alone, etiher because we don';t know a better answer, don't care, or just havn't got around to editing, all that stuff, isn't the best on offer and so it belongs in a different folder. At first I thought all those files will stay in the same folder as the .wags or .engs that use them and that worked until I took on Tim Muir's USRA cars. LOTS of the same car design from one guy spread across LOTS of individual folders. I concluded I needed to try something different for Tim's car's -- \common.model and quickly concluded it would be a good solution for many payware models as well.

So I do think there is a need for (at least) two \.common folders: One holding .inc files that are understood to be the best values you will use, really which means not too many folders, and a different \common. folder to hold all the files for one mesh file that have been skinned many different ways... and include the modelers name because some other modeler may be distributing his own mesh files for the same thing (think EMD locomotive models).

WRT further dividing the \common folder(s). Rather than use country codes I suppose one could divide them up with \Loco and \Car... or \Loco, \Freight, and \Pass tho perhaps that's too many. Thought son that?

[Metro4001]

Question gents. I downloaded the Tyler Bundy Paducah Geeps and they are TOP DRAWER stuff. However, they have an Open Rails folder with an include .eng file. There's not much documentation regarding the folder or it's content in the read me so I initially replaced the MSTS .eng files with the OR files. After getting an error in DPU I realized that these files were supposed to supersede only certain aspects of the MSTS .eng parameters and were to remain in the OR folder. However, it seems that OR is reading both files and that has caused issues when dealing with the exhaust. My geeps are smoking way too much. And I changed the color on one of the SW switchers as a test but it still spewed black smoke. How is the OR diesel block supposed to work? Do we need to delete certain MSTS parameters in the original file so OR won't read them any longer?

Also can the OR diesel block exhaust parameters be explained a bit better? Does the idle setting account for both smoke rate and magnitude? What are exhaust dynamics? Transient color? If this is already existing documentation could someone kindly point me in that direction?

[Genma Saotome]

Hard to say based on your description but my intuition tells me it's possibly not related to using the Include() statement.

Some time ago the OR team made a decision that anything in a .wag or .eng that was not stock MSTS had to be isolated and they came up with the solution of adding a folder within the folder where the .wag or .eng is located, with any OR specific stuff isolated there. I've never used it as I don't use MSTS anymore. The discussion in this thread is, essentially creating pure, stock OR .engs and .wags and doing so w/o that funky add-on folder.

Now, since you've asked what's going on here... it may be in your case there is an Include() statement and it does point at the added folder (which should work just fine). I'm guessing the problem you cite is actually all about the values in parameters and what visual effect results. To track down the matter, first take a look at the .eng file -- is there an INCLUDE() statement on any line? If yes, why don't you copy it (them) and post them in a reply. Take a screen shot of the file list in the OR only folder and post that too.

To give you a clear idea of what this thread is about, here is the entire .eng file for one of my switchers (Alco S2):

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( S-2_SP_1356ts
	WagonShape ( S-2_SP_1300db.s )

	Include ( "..\\Common.Model\\USA\\ALCO_S2_Stds_Percy_&_Norton_Model\\S2_Mesh_Defined.inc"  )
	Include ( "..\\Common.Fleet\\USA\\Std_Late_Steam_Era_Diesel_Switcher_Coupler.inc"  )
	Include ( "..\\Common.Model\\USA\\ALCO_S2_Stds_Percy_&_Norton_Model\\S2_Weight.inc"  )
	Include ( "..\\Common.Model\\USA\\ALCO_S2_Stds_Percy_&_Norton_Model\\S2_Locomotive_Brake.inc"  )
	Include ( "..\\Common.Model\\USA\\ALCO_S2_Stds_Percy_&_Norton_Model\\S2_Lights.inc"  )
	Sound ( ALS4eng.sms )
)
Engine ( S-2_SP_1356ts
	Effects (
		DieselSpecialEffects
		(
			Exhaust1
			(
				-0.33 4.58 -0.89
				0 1 0
				.1
			)
		)
	)
	DieselSmokeEffectInitialMagnitude( 1 )
	DieselSmokeEffectMaxMagnitude( 2 )
	DieselSmokeEffectInitialSmokeRate( 1 )
	DieselSmokeEffectMaxSmokeRate( 4 )

	Wagon ( S-2_SP_1356ts )
	CabView ( GenSx-rear.cvf )
	Headout ( 1.6 3.4 -4.9 )

 	Include ( "..\\Common.Model\\USA\\ALCO_S2_Stds_Percy_&_Norton_Model\\S2_Locomotive_Specs.inc"  )
 	Include ( "..\\Common.Model\\USA\\ALCO_S2_Stds_Percy_&_Norton_Model\\S2_Locomotive_Controllers.inc"  )
	Include ( "..\\Common.Model\\USA\\ALCO_S2_Stds_Percy_&_Norton_Model\\S2_Monitors.inc"  )
	Include ( "..\\Common.Model\\USA\\ALCO_S2_Stds_Percy_&_Norton_Model\\S2_Air_Compressor.inc"  )
	Include ( "..\\Common.Model\\USA\\ALCO_S2_Stds_Percy_&_Norton_Model\\S2_Brakestand.inc"  )

	EngineBrakesControllerDirectControlExponent( 1 )

	Sound ( ALS4cab.sms )
	Name ( "SP S-2 1356 Tiger Stripe, 1944 to 1958" )
	Include ( "..\\Common.Model\\USA\\ALCO_S2_Stds_Percy_&_Norton_Model\\S2_Text.inc"  )
)

The first 5 Include()'s describe files holding parameters and their values that would be identical to other S2 locos by Perry & Norton -- locos skinned for other railroads.

Then several lines for exhaust kept here as an invitation to edit the values so the exhaust is unique to this one locomotive.

The last 5 includes will also be identical for all s2 models from Perry and Norton. Change something in one of those .inc files and the change appears in every .eng for their S2. All in 42 lines with just a handful that you might want to fiddle with. Neat huh?

[R H Steele]

Metro4001, on 10 January 2018 - 07:45 PM, said:

Question gents. I downloaded the Tyler Bundy Paducah Geeps and they are TOP DRAWER stuff. However, they have an Open Rails folder with an include .eng file. There's not much documentation regarding the folder or it's content in the read me so I initially replaced the MSTS .eng files with the OR files. After getting an error in DPU I realized that these files were supposed to supersede only certain aspects of the MSTS .eng parameters and were to remain in the OR folder. However, it seems that OR is reading both files and that has caused issues when dealing with the exhaust. My geeps are smoking way too much. And I changed the color on one of the SW switchers as a test but it still spewed black smoke. How is the OR diesel block supposed to work? Do we need to delete certain MSTS parameters in the original file so OR won't read them any longer?

Also can the OR diesel block exhaust parameters be explained a bit better? Does the idle setting account for both smoke rate and magnitude? What are exhaust dynamics? Transient color? If this is already existing documentation could someone kindly point me in that direction?

First, and importantly, just think of the OpenRails folder as like a Sound or CabView folder within a trainset folder (either locomotive or wag folder). This folder contains the information (include files and path strings to the common OR folder) that OR uses to render the model in the sim. OR uses the data in the OpenRails folder and combines it with the data in the MSTS file in the parent folder, MSTS ignores the OpenRails folder. The eng or wag file in the OpenRails folder stays there and should not be copied over any files in the parent folder. (one level up)

You are correct about the OR exhaust...please see this thread, would appreciate your observations and comments, I had been planning on filing a bug report.
http://www.elvastowe...haust-is-buggy/

Regarding the ORTS Diesel Engines block, please see these this thread...I'm still gathering answers for myself, this information may help you a little.
http://www.elvastowe...esel-eng-block/

Oh yes, almost forgot...Tyler's work is excellent.

That's all I can post now, have to digest all the information in this thread...lots there.

[engmod]

I have just got this one error free in OR4021.

Several interesting events along the way:-

Brace test with EngMod showed balanced braces, but the internal braces did not match up correctly.
It took a lot of brace chasing and fixing to get OR error free.

Working on others now.

Attached File(s)

•  SD70ACE.zip (2.09K)
  Number of downloads: 461

[ATW]

engmod, on 10 January 2018 - 10:57 PM, said:

I have just got this one error free in OR4021.

Several interesting events along the way:-

Brace test with EngMod showed balanced braces, but the internal braces did not match up correctly.
It took a lot of brace chasing and fixing to get OR error free.

Working on others now.

Nice improvement so far. Sorry for the braces.

[engmod]

That is why its called testing!!

The extra brace was a leftover from removing 3d cabs from some files.