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Diesel exhaust is always black Rate Topic: -----

#11 User is offline   istvanek 

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 12:19 PM

View PostCsantucci, on 23 October 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

OR would take as basis not the actual dieselsmoke.ace located within GLOBAL\TEXTURES, but a dieselsmoke.ace file within an Openrails subfolder within the GLOBAL\TEXTURES folder. If such file is not present, OR would take an internal dieselsmoke.ace, which could be selected among ErickC's one (thank you again, it's a good candidate) and other ones.


Wouldn't be more suitable if OR looks for dieselsmoke.ace inside the loco folder (ie. where .eng file is located) at first and if not present then switch to GLOBAL dieselsmoke.ace?

This would allow us to create diesel exhaust textures appropriate to particular loco without the need to change or alter GLOBAL file.

#12 User is offline   Csantucci 

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 12:29 PM

View Postistvanek, on 23 October 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Wouldn't be more suitable if OR looks for dieselsmoke.ace inside the loco folder (ie. where .eng file is located) at first and if not present then switch to GLOBAL dieselsmoke.ace?

This would allow us to create diesel exhaust textures appropriate to particular loco without the need to change or alter GLOBAL file.

Yes, this is a good idea. However if dieselsmoke.ace is not present I think OR should check if there is a dieselsmoke.ace within the GLOBAL\TEXTURES\OPENRAILS folder, and if the file isn't there either, OR should take its internal dieselsmoke.ace.

Gerry,
I too noticed behaviours like the one you point out. It seems from the code that the effort is not considered, but only if the real RPM matches or not the requested RPM. But I didn't dig it further.

#13 User is offline   R H Steele 

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 03:24 PM

The Diesel Exhaust would be more realistic if some linkage to effort was included in the code.
Great strides have been made in OR, it is not the same simulator when I first found it --- I think it was around version 1800 something.
Thanks to all on the development team.

#14 User is offline   ATSF3751 

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 07:44 PM

Some of these issues are also found in Steam Locomotives and have been talked about many times for steam locomotives. I think both the Steam smoke coding and Diesel smoke coding both need to be looked at and both reworked at some point. They both should be linked to either chuffing for steam locomotives and possibly RPM or throttle and tonnage for diesel smoke. I do know this will take quite a bit of time for both of them but it needs to be done at some point. The Open Rails Team has been doing a wonderful job on all of the request and hopefully more will get done this winter as the cold and snow sets in soon!

Brandon

#15 User is offline   copperpen 

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 12:41 PM

The firing code for steam locos does not allow colour changes in tune with firing, manual, stoker or oil where the stack colour changes as the hydrocarbons are burnt off between firing periods. The present colour changes are caused by variations in the control settings which is not correct. The exhaust is also lacking in vertical velocity at all train speeds.

#16 User is offline   ErickC 

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 12:52 PM

For what it's worth, my observation is that two-stroke engines release a puff every revolution and four-stroke ones release a puff every other revolution. This correlates to the audible exhaust pulses. Why there isn't a continuous, steady, evenly-spaced stream from each individual cylinder exhausting is a mystery that has escaped me for ages.

#17 User is offline   Eldorado.Railroad 

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 04:12 PM

View PostCsantucci, on 23 October 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

@ Gerry and Steve: you see colours different from black because you not only did use the ORTSDieselEngines block, but also because you have replaced the original MSTS dieselsmoke.ace. If you re-insert the original dieselsmoke.ace, you will see black smoke even with the ORTSDieselEngines block.


Carlo,

I did NOT see you specify this is in the O/P. Yes of course I use a .ace that has been modified many times from the original MSTS content. At present I think the version used is from DieselsWest, as a gratis download.

Really I think the best way to go is to allow a different dieselsmoke.ace in the openrails folder for a given engine. I am sure it might be a headache to implement versus the global dieselsmoke.ace. As for ideas, I would dearly like to see the ability to use a localized variety of liteglow.ace (yes, more than one for each!) for each individual engine. Like so many of my ideas this may again fall on deaf ears.

Steve

#18 User is offline   Eldorado.Railroad 

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 04:28 PM

View PostErickC, on 24 October 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

For what it's worth, my observation is that two-stroke engines release a puff every revolution and four-stroke ones release a puff every other revolution. This correlates to the audible exhaust pulses. Why there isn't a continuous, steady, evenly-spaced stream from each individual cylinder exhausting is a mystery that has escaped me for ages.


For a continuous stream of burnt fuel you would have to have continuous combustion pouring out of EACH cylinder. Alas this is not so. Large engines do not rotate at 8000 rpm, where to the naked eye it might seem like a continuous stream because we cannot see the pauses. A diesel engine @ 200 rpm, and with multiple cylinders, you can not only hear each exhaust pulse, but see that pulse at the stack. A max rotation of 800 rpm for such a large engine is the upper limit.

#19 User is offline   ATSF3751 

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 05:05 PM

It would sure be huge if the Open Rails team could start working on some of these things because I think Open Rails is really lacking in this area and it would make a world of difference if we had more realistic smoke for both Steam and Diesel locomotives.

Brandon

#20 User is offline   ErickC 

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 06:23 PM

View PostEldorado.Railroad, on 24 October 2017 - 04:28 PM, said:

For a continuous stream of burnt fuel you would have to have continuous combustion pouring out of EACH cylinder. Alas this is not so. Large engines do not rotate at 8000 rpm, where to the naked eye it might seem like a continuous stream because we cannot see the pauses. A diesel engine @ 200 rpm, and with multiple cylinders, you can not only hear each exhaust pulse, but see that pulse at the stack. A max rotation of 800 rpm for such a large engine is the upper limit.

What I mean by "continuous stream" is an individual pulse and puff when each cylinder exhausts. In my observation, this isn't the case, the puff (and audible pulse) are tied precisely to rotation frequency, occurring half as often in a four-stroke engine. I noticed this when I was analyzing my recordings and videos of EMD 567-powered GP7 and 9 rebuilds. When I bandpassed the high frequency noise, leaving only the low-frequency exhaust pulses, I noticed that each individual audible pulse occurred about every .2 seconds at idle and about every .07 seconds at maximum RPM. This corresponds precisely to the duration of each engine rotation. I then examined my videos of EMD 567-powered locomotives, and, sure enough, the individual exhaust puffs coincided precisely with the audible exhaust pulses - one per rotation. I used this information to very precisely set the start and end points of the final audio files. I simply ensured that the idle clips were some multiple of .20 seconds in length, and the maximum RPM clips were some multiple of .07 seconds in length. If there were an individual pulse for each cylinder exhausting, I would need to use numbers 1/16th as large. I can actually use this technique, in reverse, to tell you precisely what RPM the engine is running at.

In this video. one of the locomotives is in less-than-ideal mechanical condition and it's easy to hear how the exhaust pulses synchronize precisely with engine rotation. When you've trained yourself to hear this rhythm, you can go back about 30 seconds, and note that you can hear the exact same synchronization in the deep bass note of the other locomotive's exhaust. When I analyzed a GE engine running at about 900 RPM, it became apparent that it was making exhaust puffs and audible pulses at about half the rate as the two-stroke EMD 567 at 835 RPM. It can't be coincidence that the 7FDL has half as many power strokes per rotation as the 567. I have found a similar correlation with ALCo 251 and 244 engines, although the water gets very muddy at low RPM when the engine is in "glass bottles crashing together" mode.

I have attached one of my recordings of an idling EMD 567 at 275 RPM, bandpassed to remove all information above 180Hz to make the exhaust pulses more audible, with cues every .21818 seconds (60/275, the time between each cycle of the engine). You will notice the audible pulses synchronize almost precisely with the cue points (I think this engine was running ever-so-slightly above 275 RPM, so the alignment isn't absolutely precise, the clip ends about .059 seconds before where I would have placed another cue point).

Attached File  idle demo with cues.zip (1.19MB)
Number of downloads: 245

For the fun of it, I created another clip where there is a pulse every 0.01364 seconds - this can be expressed as a fraction: (60/275)/16. This is what an EMD 567's exhaust would sound like at idle if you could hear each individual cylinder exhausting:

Attached File  sixteenth.zip (32.52K)
Number of downloads: 224

I can't possibly be the first person to have noticed this.

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