Elvas Tower: Typo in the manual - Elvas Tower

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Typo in the manual Big Bug for include files Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   R H Steele 

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:17 AM

This may have been previously reported. If so, my apologies. I do think it's important. Learning about the include files, reading the threads, I found a quite a bit of confusing and hazy information about include files.
Section 8.14.1 page 116 Typo
TYPO (my emphasis) >>> include ( ..\bc13ge70tonner.eng ) <<<< A forward-slash is required NOT a back slash. As I found, when back-slash is used, OR log contains a warning and reverts to default MSTS.

Also, important is that the section on the include file does not indicate the need for the file to begin with a blank line space.
And...no mention is made of quote marks if the file name contains spaces. include ( "../bc13 ge70 tonner.eng" )

Also not needed (although no OR log warnings appear if used) is the SIMIS file header. Other than more work and an unnecessary line, does it present a problem to use the SIMIS header? Technically speaking, the include file is not a SIMIS file. (am I off base here?)

If any part of this post is errant please advise, I do not wish to mislead anyone.

#2 User is offline   DirtyRam 

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 12:48 PM

Hey Gerry, OK this first Include group in my engine file,

Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\MeshLoco\\MeshBNSFET44C4SLI.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORStock\\FrtLoco\\Couplers\\CouplerRoadLarge.inc" )
Include ( ..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\WeightLoco\\WeightBNSF ET44C4.inc )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\BrakesLoco\\BrakesEngineMaxProCompLarge.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\LightsLoco\\LightsBNSFET44C4SLI.inc" )

Notice the third line down, I removed all quotes and put a space in the include files name
and changed .inc file the same.
OR loaded with no errors.
The quotes, the space, didn't matter. Hope this might be of some help,
As it turns out I put space in different part of .inc file

Weight BNSFET44C4.inc

Still loaded in OR and CB no errors

This is my .inc file, if I backspace the comment line it will not move.
If a space was present it would move back, I'm thinking,

Comment ( Weight BNSFET44C4.inc )

comment( 415k lb )
Mass ( 189.5t )

ORTSadhesion ( ORTSCurtius_Kniffler ( 8.5 42 0.173 0.7 ) )
DerailRailHeight ( 5cm )
DerailRailForce ( 2.7*189.5t )
DerailBufferForce ( 665kN )
NumWheels ( 6 )
Friction ( 1822.3N/m/s -0.05 1.0mph 15.65N/m/s 1.834
5.1N/rad/s 1 -1rad/s 0 1 )

ORTSDriveWheelWeight( 31.59t )

Yes, these are a big WIP

Mike

#3 User is offline   Csantucci 

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 12:50 PM

Thanks for precision, Gerry, however in such manual section (I assume you refer to the latest release of the manual - the one referring to release x.3804 in the cover page) just after the file example you can read:
"Take into account that the first line must be blank (before the include line)."
So at least this - important - info is present :) .

#4 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 01:02 PM

The simple approach is to always put the referenced path and name inside double quotes and always use two backslashes. It might not be necessary for OR but it can make a difference in those editors that are smart enough to open files written this way.

Include ( "..\\Common.Fleet\\US\\Std_Type_E_Coupler_Generic_Draft_Gear.inc" )

The .inc file itself does not need to be a SIMIS file but it does need to be UFT-16LE with signature.

#5 User is offline   Goku 

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 01:13 PM

TSRE requires quotes if path has spaces.

#6 User is offline   Jovet 

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 01:20 PM

View PostGenma Saotome, on 06 June 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

The simple approach is to always put the referenced path and name inside double quotes and always use two backslashes.

This is also the correct approach. The backslash is the only proper character to use to separate paths on Windows and DOS operating systems. Similarly, you cannot type http:\\jovet.net into your web browser, because backslashes are NOT the correct character on Unix operating systems.

The fact that Windows sometimes accepts forward slashes is a grace, and is not something I would ever rely upon.

The reason that two backslashes are necessary is because in "string" variables of the C (et omnia) programing languages, the backslash character is special as it initiates an escape sequence. An escape sequence is a discreet code of special instructions embedded in otherwise unremarkable data. Escape sequences are used in C strings to be able to literally type things you otherwise wouldn't be able to, like special control characters for a new line \n or tabs \t or carriage returns \r or such. Any time you actually need to type an actual backslash, the escape sequence \\ is used to do that. Hence the two backslashes. Why Open Rails seems to require data like this to be demarked with dbl-quotation marks I do not know, since I wouldn't expect any parsing problems without spaces or parentheses present .

#7 User is offline   Goku 

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 01:59 PM

View PostJovet, on 06 June 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

The fact that Windows sometimes accepts forward slashes is a grace, and is not something I would ever rely upon.

What? I think it was Windows 95/98 issue. Now Windows accepts forward slash in most places.

Correct is: "/", "\\". Why "\" is incorrect, Jovet explained.

#8 User is offline   R H Steele 

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 07:54 AM

View PostCsantucci, on 06 June 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

Thanks for precision, Gerry, however in such manual section (I assume you refer to the latest release of the manual - the one referring to release x.3804 in the cover page) just after the file example you can read:
"Take into account that the first line must be blank (before the include line)."
So at least this - important - info is present :) .


Certainly, how did I miss that one? Thanks Carlo, and yes I was referring to the latest release.
Although, to introduce a minor point, perhaps for clarification it would be better to place instructions concerning the first line of the file at the top of the file instead of the bottom.
This is NOT directed towards you, but, hopefully might get passed on to whomever is working with the manual...

View PostGenma Saotome, on 06 June 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

The simple approach is to always put the referenced path and name inside double quotes and always use two backslashes. It might not be necessary for OR but it can make a difference in those editors that are smart enough to open files written this way.

Include ( "..\\Common.Fleet\\US\\Std_Type_E_Coupler_Generic_Draft_Gear.inc" )

The .inc file itself does not need to be a SIMIS file but it does need to be UFT-16LE with signature.


Dave, something clicked, when I read your post and the one from Mike --- I cannot explain why, bit I see know what you and others are doing with the include files. I think I just did not understand what the use of the ".inc" file was. After re-reading the relevant manual section, looking through the threads and then reading the answers here..it clicked. Cripes, took me a while, I've been reading your posts, and messages for a couple of years and the basic method did not penetrate my very thick skull.
I'm going to start woking with this and see what else I need to learn.

View PostJovet, on 06 June 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

This is also the correct approach. The backslash is the only proper character to use to separate paths on Windows and DOS operating systems. Similarly, you cannot type http:\\jovet.net into your web browser, because backslashes are NOT the correct character on Unix operating systems...


Understood, thanks for the clear explanation. include ( "..\\name" ) as the preferred method.

...and thank you to all of you for the education and clarification. Helps me quite a bit, I've been wondering what I could do to contribute something to the community, perhaps this will clear the way.
There are quite a few people that - for whatever reason - do not wish to tinker with or mod MSTS files in order to take advantage of OR physics and coded parameters. My idea is to dive into the vast library at TS and start making include files for sets of wagons that are of sufficient quality to be used in OR. Packaged in a nice "OpenRail" folder ready to be dropped into a trainset. See this thread >> https://www.trainsim...utoracks_Jeff_A
That should keep me busy for while.
A sample >>> I'm still puzzling over the coupler settings for the autoracks. The original use a smaller value for the 2nd entry in the Break line.

include ( "..\\ATSF_88099_LD.wag" )
Wagon (
	Coupling (
	Type ( Automatic )
	Spring (
		Stiffness ( 1e7N/m 3e7N/m )
		Damping ( 1e7N/m/s 4e7n/m/s )
		Break ( 1550kN 1550kN )
		r0 ( 4cm 4cm )
	)
	CouplingHasRigidConnection ( 1 )
		Velocity ( 0.1m/s )
	)
 	Comment ( Front coupling )
	Coupling (
	Type ( Automatic )
	Spring (
		Stiffness ( 1e7N/m 3e7N/m )
		Damping ( 1e7N/m/s 4e7n/m/s )
		Break ( 1550kN 1550kN )
		r0 ( 4cm 4cm )
	)
	CouplingHasRigidConnection ( 1 ) 
	Velocity ( -0.1m/s )
	)
	ORTSAdhesion ( ORTSCurtius_Kniffler ( 7.5 44 0.161 0.7 ) )
	ORTSBearingType ( Roller )
	ORTSDavis_A ( 809.40 )
	ORTSDavis_B ( 10.8919 )
	ORTSDavis_C ( 2.733673 )
	Comment( == Assumptions -FreightCar Autorack - speed - 65mph (105km/h), Roller Bearing, 4 axles, frontal area - 16.3m2, WagonWeight - 66.2 ton (metric) == )
 	
 	Comment ( orts performance brakes )
	BrakeEquipmentType ( "Handbrake, Triple_valve, Auxilary_reservoir, Emergency_brake_reservoir" )
	BrakeSystemType ( "Air_single_pipe" )
	MaxBrakeForce( 38kN )
	MaxHandbrakeForce( 28kN )
	EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure( 90 )
	TripleValveRatio( 2.5 )
	MaxReleaseRate( 3.93 )
	MaxApplicationRate( 3.49 )
	MaxAuxilaryChargingRate( 3.23 )
	EmergencyResCapacity( 8.06 )
	EmergencyResChargingRate( 3.23 )
	BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce( 70 ) 
)


#9 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:42 AM

Gerry, I'm going to zip an example for you and put it in a PM.

#10 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 10:15 AM

View PostR H Steele, on 07 June 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:



Understood, thanks for the clear explanation. include ( "..\\name" ) as the preferred method.




Ahhh, something to trip over. "..\\name.inc" those dots look pretty innocent but they're actually the nasty thug in the whole line. They are part of the path to the file.

  • If your .inc file is placed in the same directory as the .wag or .eng that uses them then you do not want "..\\" all all, just "name.inc".
  • If your .inc file is in \trainset, sitting loose among all of the folders, then you want "..\\name.inc". The two dots tell the program(s) to move up one level in the folder tree, from the .car or .eng folder one up to \trainset.
  • If your .inc file in a folder in \trainset (not the one with your .wag or .eng but some other folder) then you want "..\\path\\name.inc" where path is the full path between \trainset and where ever the .inc actually is placed.


FWIW I only use options 1 and 3. I never use option 2.

When I use option 3 my destination of choice is always somewhere in my \common.fleet or \common.model folders. I'm using those two exactly as common.cab has been used since day 1. \common.fleet gets .inc files that are nearly universally used -- couplers, brake equipment. \common.model gets .inc files for one mesh that has been skinned for many railroads. Use of \common.model means I always know where the .inc file will be w/o regard to which skinned folder I have. IOW, if I put the .inc file in one of the folders that is a skinned model and have all of the other railroads folders look there... what happens when I decide I no longer want the first model? Or I change it's folder name? I'm screwed! Instead, using \common.model I have a neutral location, something almost akin to "this is for the mesh file" location. It works very well.



Examples:

Include ( "NE_NYC_19100-19299_Mesh_Defined.inc" )

This is from a caboose model. AFAIK it's the only instance I have of this mesh, perhaps the only railroad that uses this mesh. There are several .wag files in the folder. As such, it makes perfect sense to use ./inc files to slim down the .wags and for those data that are specific only to this model to put the .inc files in the same folder as the .wags; In this case all of the data that describes the dimensions of the model... the data values that are defined by the mesh itself.



Include ( "..\\Common.Model\\US\\USRA_DS_Boxcar_Tim_Muir_Model\\XM_USRA_DS_Mesh_Defined.inc" )
Include ( "..\\Common.Fleet\\US\\Std_Type_E_Coupler_Generic_Draft_Gear.inc" )

These two lines come from the same .wag. One points to \common.model and the other to \common.fleet. The path statement is multilevel -- the dots mean go up one level to \trainset, the text says where to look after that. Do note I use a country code to represent an intermediate folder. I do this because I've placed the two \common. folders in every \trainset folder I have, which are international. The country code helps keep things organized.

Also note in \common.model that after the country code I have a folder that identifies the mesh and who made it. I do this because I may have the same car or locomotive that has been modeled by different people and there may be good reason to isolate the files for each creator -- perhaps one model is as built and the other is for 30 years later, after lots of modifications, stuff that changes the values in the files.

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